Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Is it Legal to Privately Sell a Handgun to an Out-of-State Resident?

  1. #1
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Etzenricht, Germany
    Posts
    1,600

    Post imported post

    Is it legal to sell a handgun to an out-of-state person if that person has no felony or domestic abuse convictions, is a US citizen and nothing precludes that person owning the handgun in his state of residence?
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

  2. #2
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,606

    Post imported post

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Is it legal to sell a handgun to an out-of-state person if that person has no felony or domestic abuse convictions, is a US citizen and nothing precludes that person owning the handgun in his state of residence?
    No, see 18 USC 922 & 924; same for long guns unless you are a dealer.

  3. #3
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,043

    Post imported post

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Is it legal to sell a handgun to an out-of-state person if that person has no felony or domestic abuse convictions, is a US citizen and nothing precludes that person owning the handgun in his state of residence?
    Not directly. You must go through an FFL.

    So, yes. You may sell it to them, but it must be "lawfully" transferred.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  4. #4
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,740

    Post imported post

    Not directly. You must go through an FFL.
    ...in his state.

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,624

    Post imported post

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Is it legal to sell a handgun to an out-of-state person if that person has no felony or domestic abuse convictions, is a US citizen and nothing precludes that person owning the handgun in his state of residence?
    The answer to your question is it is NOT legal to sell a HANDGUN.

    A long gun is different and you can sell to someone in a contiguous state.
    Doesn't make much sense, does it?

  6. #6
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,043

    Post imported post

    peter nap wrote:
    A long gun is different and you can sell to someone in a contiguous state.
    Cite, please?

    Because if that was the case I could buy all the long guns I wanted to from North Carolina... but I'm pretty sure that I cannot.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Gloucester, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    631

    Post imported post

    Yeah a lot of importance is laid upon handguns, as if they are the most dangerous things on the planet, but considering the much shorter range of such weapons,I have to wonder about the rational behind this thinking.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Falls Church, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    392

    Post imported post

    wylde007 wrote:
    ODA 226 wrote:
    Is it legal to sell a handgun to an out-of-state person if that person has no felony or domestic abuse convictions, is a US citizen and nothing precludes that person owning the handgun in his state of residence?
    Not directly. You must go through an FFL.

    So, yes. You may sell it to them, but it must be "lawfully" transferred.
    This is a distinction that is often glossed over in this forum, and deserves more explanation.

    Generally, unless you have certain knowledge that a buyer is a prohibited person, you may sell a handgun to them without fear of legal consequences. However, and this is a big however, you cannot just deliver the gun to an out-of-state buyer after the sale.

    There is a distinction in Federal law between selling/ownership, and possession. You can freely sell a handgun to someone who resides in another state, e.g. through GunBroker, e-mail, whatever. No third-party need be involved with this sale. However you cannot legally transfer it to them except through an FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) in their state. In most cases, the delivering FFL is required to perform a background check on the transferee. Additionally, some states have additional restrictions on how transfers can happen, e.g. CA requires the recipient to hold a "Handgun Safety Certificate" before they can receive a handgun. A growing number of FFLs will not proxy a transfer for an individual seller, they require the seller to use an FFL in their own state to initiate a transfer, e.g. seller in Texas -> FFL in Texas -> FFL in VA -> buyer in VA.

    This is mostly in the GCA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968 IMHO restoration of free trade in firearms should be a primary goal of 2A organizations.

    edited: for clarity

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Falls Church, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    392

    Post imported post

    Pagan wrote:
    Yeah a lot of importance is laid upon handguns, as if they are the most dangerous things on the planet, but considering the much shorter range of such weapons,I have to wonder about the rational behind this thinking.
    I think the "rationale" is that handguns are so much easier to conceal. Another voice in support of OC!

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,624

    Post imported post

    wylde007 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    A long gun is different and you can sell to someone in a contiguous state.
    Cite, please?

    Because if that was the case I could buy all the long guns I wanted to from North Carolina... but I'm pretty sure that I cannot.
    It gets a little complicated. Like a lot of the GCA, there are conflicting provisions. According to one part, anyone from any state can purchase from an FFL in any other state.

    From ATF FAQ section:
    (B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

    A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State,
    except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
    We all know that's not really true and it was construed early on that only Contiguous states could participate. This was because of many state Contiguous sale laws which were copied from the original GCA.

    The act was amended to make it more confusing in 86. This is a good discussion of it in the FFL news letter.

    In an article that appeared in the December 2002
    edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
    that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun
    Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the
    GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long
    gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the
    purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from
    receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA,
    and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply
    with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and
    seller’s States.
    The condition of sale relating to compliance with
    the applicable laws of both States cited above
    continues to cause confusion among dealers,
    particularly among those dealers who conduct
    business in a State whose laws presently contain
    language that allows “contiguous state” sales.
    Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the
    GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
    that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in
    a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
    law provisions were modeled after the contiguous
    state provisions of the GCA. However, even
    though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow
    the sale of long guns to residents of any State
    pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States
    have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
    language. ATF takes the position that if the laws
    of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
    gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its
    residents to acquire a long gun in any other State
    where the laws of that State permit such
    transactions, unless the language contained in that
    State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from
    acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions
    regarding particular State law provisions should be
    referred to your local ATF office.



    Firearms laws will give you a headache.
    When I was building AR's, I had a fit over serial numbers. After hundreds of hours reading the ATF rules and IRS rules and VA law, the ATF and I decided it DID NOT need a number for personal use but did need something that did not need to be registered, for state use.

    The reason for not needing to register the number was because that's an IRS tax number and personal use guns are tax exempt.

    Fun Huh!


  11. #11
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,043

    Post imported post

    I still don't see anywhere where it says you could circumvent the FFL transfer requirement.

    All of those references indicate a "dealer" as the seller. At least that's how it reads to me.

    The intention is that a private person who is not a licensed firearms dealer may not lawfully "transfer" a firearm directly to another individual.

    That's my read on it anyway.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,624

    Post imported post

    wylde007 wrote:
    I still don't see anywhere where it says you could circumvent the FFL transfer requirement.

    All of those references indicate a "dealer" as the seller. At least that's how it reads to me.

    The intention is that a private person who is not a licensed firearms dealer may not lawfully "transfer" a firearm directly to another individual.

    That's my read on it anyway.
    I quit arguing firearms laws a long time ago. It's like discussing what the best deer rifle is.

    I'll ask you this and you can ponder on the reasoning. Where in Va law does it say it's legal to Open Carry?

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,624

    Post imported post

    One other thing Wylde...I'm not advocating doing this.

    First, if you go to a dealer, not 1 in 100 will want the headaches.

    Second, if you do it as an individual...trying to explain the legality will give you an ulcer.



  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Falls Church, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    392

    Post imported post

    wylde007 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    A long gun is different and you can sell to someone in a contiguous state.
    Cite, please?

    Because if that was the case I could buy all the long guns I wanted to from North Carolina... but I'm pretty sure that I cannot.
    The GCA'68 does not preclude an FFL from selling a long gun to a resident of any State at the FFL's premises where State law permits. The selling FFL is required to comply with both his own State laws, and the buyer's State laws. A licensee's failure to comply with both sets of State laws is a Federal offense.

    Here is another area where sloppy language confuses things. Except for prohibited persons, there are few Federal restrictions on individuals who wish to buy or sell "Title I" firearms. The restrictions are on the FFLs and interstate transfers. But, this is somewhat of a hollow distinction. You may be legally allowed to buy it, but that doesn't mean you will be able to find anyone who will sell it to you.

    Many (most?) FFLs are disinclined to acquaint themselves with the ever-changing laws of the 50 States and so refuse these sales as a matter of policy. Additionally, for State's that require a background check, an out-of-State FFL may not be able to perform one. It is easier and safer for them to simply ship to an FFL in the buyer's State.

    It does kind of make me wonder why there are not more gun dealers with premises that straddle State lines.

  15. #15
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,043

    Post imported post

    architect wrote:
    [snip]
    Still talking FFL and the OP was asking about private citizens if I read him correctly.

    peter nap wrote:
    I'll ask you this and you can ponder on the reasoning. Where in Va law does it say it's legal to Open Carry?
    Come on, Peter. You know laws (in Virginia, anyway) only prohibit. They do not permit.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,624

    Post imported post

    wylde007 wrote:
    architect wrote:
    [snip]
    Still talking FFL and the OP was asking about private citizens if I read him correctly.

    peter nap wrote:
    Come on, Peter. You know laws (in Virginia, anyway) only prohibit. They do not permit.
    Federal Law too!

    The Dealer provision only opens the door to private sales and doesn't prohibit it.

    Again, I'm not advocating it and I sure didn't come up with the idea. Private sales like this have been going on since 68.

    I'm just throwing it out for thought.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,037

    Post imported post

    zoom6zoom wrote:
    Not directly. You must go through an FFL.
    ...in his state.
    Correct.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,606

    Post imported post

    peter nap wrote:
    A long gun is different and you can sell to someone in a contiguous state.
    Doesn't make much sense, does it?
    No - that used to be a dealer restriction, now gone, though lingering in some states' laws - but no private sales to residents of other states - see federal law at 18 usc 922 &924

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,624

    Post imported post

    Mike wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    A long gun is different and you can sell to someone in a contiguous state.
    Doesn't make much sense, does it?
    No - that used to be a dealer restriction, now gone, though lingering in some states' laws - but no private sales to residents of other states - see federal law at 18 usc 922 &924

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •