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Thread: First LEO Interaction

  1. #1
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    was oc'ing on my motorcycle in a thigh rig today, like i always do. I have about 500 miles in so far this spring.

    Was cruising around the city of Lapeer enjoying the sunshine and got pulled over by county leo.

    I did not have my voice recorder with me...forgot and left it at work.

    I broke my own rule, and talked. I know the officer(s) involved as i used to work emergency services in the county, not a good excuse, i know.

    Basically the conversation was the same as many other leo interactions. "you are violating you cpl right now" "you have to carry concealed" The officer is aware of open carry, because he talked about it, and said that it is legal to walk down the sidewalk open carrying, but not legal on a motorcycle. Something about how a pistol in a vehicle needs to be unloaded and out of reach. I politely told him that i wasn't going to argue, but disagreed and believed that open carry on a motorcycle it is perfectly legal.

    After going back to his vehicle and making a phone call (prosecutor probably) he gave me back my registration/insurance etc.

    Then he and another officer gave me a stern talking to and told me how disappointed they were that I of all people were open carrying. They said that if people call 911 then they will have to respond, and it will be a big pain for them. I apologized for that, but they didn't want to hear it.

    I don't want to create extra work for the police department. If there is a problem with the 911 dispatch system, perhaps that should be addressed, but i really don't feel i was the one in the wrong today. The officer who conducted an illegal terry stop should not be angry with me.

    I am going to foia the incident.

    no tickets.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  2. #2
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    They are full of crap! And they are just leaning on you to try and extract compliance through intimidation.

    You were perfectly legal in what you were doing.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  3. #3
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    These are officers who i know and respect. I was just really disappointed that they were so uncool with open carry. I expect that sort of reaction from big city unfriendly violate-your-rights-cops, but these individuals are good people who i have known for a long time.

    Here is my foia request....thanks to szerdzi and dean...i think they are the originators of the format i used. Since there were two different departmetns there, should i send a separate foia to each police department? And....in my letter, should i use the term sheriff officers or sheriff deputies?

    Here is the edited version:

    March 25, 2010

    VIA CERTIFIED MAIL
    RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED

    FOIA COORDINATOR
    LAPEER COUNTY SHERIFF DEPARTMENT
    3231 JOHN CONLEY DRIVE
    LAPEER MI 48446
    RE: FOIA Request

    Dear FOIA Coordinator:

    On March 24th 2010 at approximately 1615, Lapeer County Sheriff’s Department Deputy Mike Tappen and one unknown Sheriff department deputy and one officer from Lapeer township or city engaged in a traffic stop of a man with a pistol riding a motorcycle near the intersection of M-21 and M-24. After further investigation, no citations were issued.

    Pursuant to the Michigan Freedom of Information Act, MCL §15.231, I am requesting copies of documents relating to the aforementioned incident including:

    Any and all recordings of radio communications related in any way to the dispatch, response, or request for assistance by the officers involved with the incident;

    Any and all video recordings of the incident, including patrol car video, unedited

    Any and all documents that identify the officers dispatched to the scene as a result of the incident, including the police report; roll call rosters; vehicle logs; and, audio recordings;

    Any and all emails, memos, letters and/or other correspondence between employees of the Lapeer County Sheriff’s Department and any other person regarding the incident; and,

    Any and all property booking notes, cards, and papers and recordings associated with the incident; and,
    Any and all Field notes from the officers involved

    Should the cost for researching, compiling and copying the requested information exceed $30.00, please inform me of the anticipated cost, and provide me with a time and place for a physical inspection of the requested information before researching, compiling or copying the requested information.

    Please respond to this request by replying to the following address:

    my addres

    I appreciate your anticipated cooperation with this request. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call me at the number above.


    Sincerely,

    signed me

    *edited to update the foia"
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  4. #4
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    i almost forgot...one of the officers asked some thing like why are you carrying like that with a cpl? Which i replied "because open carrying on a motorcycle without a cpl is a grey area"

    i was also asked for my registration....so i handed him my vehicle registration. He was like, do you have your PISTOL registration ? I answered that i don't think i need to carry it. He said that if he had that he wouldn't need to take my pistol and run the numbers...but he ended up not taking my pistol and running the numbers.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  5. #5
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    He complained about the possibility of making extra work for them after stopping you illegally and wasting both of your time?

  6. #6
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:
    He complained about the possibility of making extra work for them after stopping you illegally and wasting both of your time?
    Yeah now that is funny right there!!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I believe that you handled it well AND are doing the right thing by FOIA'ing the information. No one of us is perfect and we learn from every incident.

    I would imagine that a Formal Complaint needs to be filed and meeting with the Police Chiefs of each department. This should be done with the focus of "informing" and not condemning, unless this is not the first interaction like this for these departments.

    Make Friends, Not Enemies (if possible)! :?
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  8. #8
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    These are officers who i know and respect. I was just really disappointed that they were so uncool with open carry. I expect that sort of reaction from big city unfriendly violate-your-rights-cops, but these individuals are good people who i have known for a long time.
    You thought they were good people from having known them a long time. Then you saw their true colors with this experience. They're the type of cops that really down deep inside view all non-LEO adults as children that they need to control.

    Sorry you got that rude awakening as to their true character.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  9. #9
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    You done good.

    God Bless
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

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    God Bless

  10. #10
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    i wrote a nice letter to the Sheriff, but i will send it after i get my foia.

    I also would like to state that i am not going to file any sort of complaint. The goal is to make open carry commonplace and accepted by the citizens and officers of Lapeer County. I feel that any sort of complaint at this point would only increase hostility and make that goal more difficult to reach. As far as i know, this is the first interaction with LEO and and open carry in the county. I expect that interactions between leo and oc'ers in Lapeer will soon become a thing of the past.

    I mailed the FOIA request first thing this morning certified mail with return receipt.

    I also created a foia request for each department that was on scene, and central dispatch 911.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  11. #11
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    Lapeer County Central Dispatch 911 is to be highly commended! They just called and my foia request is ready to be picked up. It was only about 2 hours ago that i submitted the request.


    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  12. #12
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    Very Very NICE Job!

  13. #13
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    had a difficult time posting to youtube...
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  14. #14
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    here is the link:
    .
    I did stop immediately, the dispatcher misunderstood what the officer had said. The officer was busy telling me that it is illegal to ride a motorcycle while open carrying instead of listening to his radio.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4586psnGpm0
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Pretty tame, most of it. There was that one part, about pushing the limits or something. I guess this department needs to have a packet mailed to them, probably again.
    Big Gay Al
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  16. #16
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    still waiting for the dash cam video/audio
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  17. #17
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    had a difficult time posting to youtube...
    You should have asked me. Let me know if youw ould like to add it to the OC youtube channel rather then your personal one. There are a lot of people who dont see it because there is only a link in here.

    Mike

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 12:42 PM.

  19. #19
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    How long were you riding before you pulled over?



    The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!

  20. #20
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    was oc'ing on my motorcycle in a thigh rig today, like i always do. I have about 500 miles in so far this spring.

    Was cruising around the city of Lapeer enjoying the sunshine and got pulled over by county leo.

    I did not have my voice recorder with me...forgot and left it at work.

    I broke my own rule, and talked. I know the officer(s) involved as i used to work emergency services in the county, not a good excuse, i know.

    Basically the conversation was the same as many other leo interactions. "you are violating you cpl right now" "you have to carry concealed" The officer is aware of open carry, because he talked about it, and said that it is legal to walk down the sidewalk open carrying, but not legal on a motorcycle. Something about how a pistol in a vehicle needs to be unloaded and out of reach. I politely told him that i wasn't going to argue, but disagreed and believed that open carry on a motorcycle it is perfectly legal.

    After going back to his vehicle and making a phone call (prosecutor probably) he gave me back my registration/insurance etc.

    Then he and another officer gave me a stern talking to and told me how disappointed they were that I of all people were open carrying. They said that if people call 911 then they will have to respond, and it will be a big pain for them. I apologized for that, but they didn't want to hear it.

    I don't want to create extra work for the police department. If there is a problem with the 911 dispatch system, perhaps that should be addressed, but i really don't feel i was the one in the wrong today. The officer who conducted an illegal terry stop should not be angry with me.

    I am going to foia the incident.

    no tickets.
    If only people would make my job easier

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    What was the reason for the stop?? Was it just for the OC?

    Pushing the issue? WTF. Don't they realize that people are going to OC more and more and that we are not pushing an issue, other than exercising a right recognized by the state.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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  23. #23
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    mudvr1212 wrote:
    How long were you riding before you pulled over?



    The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!
    I had stopped immediately.

    The dispatcher mis-understood what the officer said

    then the officer was too busy telling me how i was breaking to law to listen to his radio, so he had no idea all these units were converging on "the chase"
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  24. #24
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    mudvr1212 wrote:
    The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!
    Being on AIM doesn't automatically indicate something bad. Lot of agencies are signing onto social media and instant chat. My local emergency management service twitters, and I know more about weather emergencies and local road closures due to accidents and construction than I would ever know through the traditional media.




  25. #25
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    mudvr1212 wrote:
    How long were you riding before you pulled over?



    The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!
    A lot of departments using Mobile Data Terminals have 'dingers' that sound very similar to messenger type systems.

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