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First LEO Interaction

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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What was the reason for the stop?? Was it just for the OC?

Pushing the issue? WTF. Don't they realize that people are going to OC more and more and that we are not pushing an issue, other than exercising a right recognized by the state.
 

lapeer20m

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mudvr1212 wrote:
How long were you riding before you pulled over?



The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!:cuss:
I had stopped immediately.

The dispatcher mis-understood what the officer said

then the officer was too busy telling me how i was breaking to law to listen to his radio, so he had no idea all these units were converging on "the chase"
 

KBCraig

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mudvr1212 wrote:
The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!:cuss:
Being on AIM doesn't automatically indicate something bad. Lot of agencies are signing onto social media and instant chat. My local emergency management service twitters, and I know more about weather emergencies and local road closures due to accidents and construction than I would ever know through the traditional media.
 

sevenplusone

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Kent Co, Michigan, USA
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mudvr1212 wrote:
How long were you riding before you pulled over?



The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!:cuss:
A lot of departments using Mobile Data Terminals have 'dingers' that sound very similar to messenger type systems.
 

BluEyes

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Atlas Twp, Michigan, USA
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mudvr1212 wrote:
The dispatch needs to get off their AOL messenger because @ time 2:52 you hear the notice of a new message...must be a great multi-tasker!!!:cuss:
Instant messages don't all have to be "ZOMG LOL!!" they can be used for work purposes as well. My employer puts an instant message program on our laptops and it is very useful, lets you get quick information without the distraction of a phone call.

Sounds like the officers are at least wise to the situation, even if they aren't entirely supportive.
 

PDinDetroit

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lapeer20m wrote:
yes, it appears the only reason for the stop was open carry.
I agree with Ven on this. We are not pushing an issue, just exercising rights. If we were pushing an issue, a protest march/demonstration would be organized and carried out. No need for these unless things get 10x worse.

Here is my original post on this, I encourage you to take appropriate actions.

I believe that you handled it well AND are doing the right thing by FOIA'ing the information. No one of us is perfect and we learn from every incident.

I would imagine that a Formal Complaint needs to be filed and meeting with the Police Chiefs of each department. This should be done with the focus of "informing" and not condemning, unless this is not the first interaction like this for these departments.

Make Friends, Not Enemies (if possible)!
 

lapeer20m

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wolverine1856 wrote:
I liked how he was "thoroughly disappointed" with you.



I did not like that so much. I am a friendly guy and like to get along with everybody.

I have great faith that law enforcement in lapeer county will eventually warm up to open carry. They are a good group of guys (and gals) Change is often difficult for people. Seeing people open carrying is certainly a change from what used to be normal. However, open carry is quickly becoming the new "normal"

Still waiting for 2 of my FOIA requests. I mailed one via certified mail, and delivered two more by hand. I have received no information on two of them, the third was handled and processed within 2 hours of submitting the request (+1 for Lapeer county central dispatch!) I am expecting letters from the other two departments soon as they are running out of time to respond. One was hand delivered on march 25, the other was received via certified mail on the 26th.
 

Sail Man

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Northville, Michigan, USA
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In my ccw class this past weekend the DPD officer who taught the class stated that there were no pfz's that allowed for/required oc'ing for a cpl holder. It was my understanding prior that some pfz's required you to oc but couldn't cc with a cpl.

With a cpl, can I oc in certain pfz's even when cc is not allowed?

JBD, I'm sure you handled the stop with utmost tact. Considering your rep with the LEO's in LC, I'm surprised they hassled you so much about it. Disappointed in you?!? WTF
 

lapeer20m

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Sail Man wrote:
In my ccw class this past weekend the DPD officer who taught the class stated that there were no pfz's that allowed for/required oc'ing for a cpl holder.
he was wrong.

you can open carry in all of the places listed in .234D if you have a cpl.
750.234d (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act,
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following: ...

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
You can possess a firearm on all of the above premises (except the court) if you have a cpl...but the cpl statute forbids you to carry concealed in the pfz's.

28.425o
(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property
.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises.

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship,

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.


(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).


you still cannot possess a firearm on the premises of federal buildings (like the post office), a court, or at a casino. But pfz's listed on the back of your cpl only apply to a Concealed pistol, therefore open carry is legal in all of those places because of .234d
 

Sail Man

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That is how I was interpreting it. In my question to him, I got the impression that he was not in favor of open carry at all. Yet he did state that you could cc in a post office, but not in a court house, as you pointed out.

His main beef with oc is that the perp can see your armed and then take you out first, so, by being concealed, you maintain the element of surprise, which I can agree with. But I can also see that by oc'ing, you can be a deterrent to any potential perp. So, what I plan on doing is oc during certain times, and cc when I think that is more prudent.
 

MK

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They said that if people call 911 then they will have to respond, and it will be a big pain for them.

They don't have to respond.

If an officer tries to whip that arguement out on me I am going to explain something that shouldn't even need to be explained. Unfortunately, a citizen sometimes seems to have to not only tell the officer what the law truly is, what his duties truly are but in this case, may even go one step further and tell them how to do their job better and more efficiently.

During these 911 calls, it would go a long way if the dispatcher would ask a few questions when a person reports seeing a citizen in public with a gun. Its not hard to figure out either.

- Is the gun holstered or being brandished?

- Is the person acting suspicious in any way?

- Does the person appear intoxicated or agitated?

- Where is the exact location of this individual?

If the caller answers no to all these questions and possibly a couple more, than the dispatcher can relay that information to the patrols out there and save them the headache of having to investigate the call. They will realize they were just called about someone who is not doing anything wrong.

Do people call 911 and only tell the police that they saw a man driving a car and then the departments repeatedly feel a need to send someone out to check it out because there was a sighting of a man drivinga car? No, if they got a call like that they would ask more questions to find out if there is any reason to believe something is actually wrong. Hopefully, normal appearing people legally carrying firearms will be treated in the same way.
 

Bronson

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Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
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Sail Man wrote:
That is how I was interpreting it. In my question to him, I got the impression that he was not in favor of open carry at all. Yet he did state that you could cc in a post office, but not in a court house, as you pointed out.

His main beef with oc is that the perp can see your armed and then take you out first, so, by being concealed, you maintain the element of surprise, which I can agree with. But I can also see that by oc'ing, you can be a deterrent to any potential perp. So, what I plan on doing is oc during certain times, and cc when I think that is more prudent.

1) I do not believe this to be true.

2) I don't buy the "element of surprise" argument. See my lengthy postfrom another thread, quoted below.

I carry both ways and it's mostly dependent on what I'm wearing. My jackets all hang lower than my firearm so when the coat is on I'm CC but if it comes off I'm usually OC. In weather that doesn't require a jacket I primarily OC.

I have several different reasons.

Sorry for the length of this.

Tactical: The research that I've read (and I cannot for the life of me remember where I read it) says that a large majority of felons told the researchers that their #1 fear when commiting a crime against another person was that the victim was armed. They also told researchers that they would go for the soft target over the hard target even if the the hard target would garner them a bigger take. They would rather rob 30 little old ladies for $10 each than one muscle bound cage fighter for $300.

The OC of a firearm places the wearer squarely in the "hard target" category making them a less desirable target.

Many people say that they prefer CC because they want the "element of surprise", this just doesn't make sense to me. Surprise is a great tactic for an offensive manuever like an ambush but it is a lousy tactic for defending against one. The very fact that you need to draw your weapon means that you are already smack-dab in the middle of a life and death situation....how does surprise help you at that point? According to the NRA in the VAST majority of self-defense uses of a firearm the mere presence of the gun was enough to deter the attacker. Logic tells me that the sooner the presence of the gun is known the sooner the attacker chooses to find another target.

This brings me to the OODA loop. In any interaction (this is very simplified) we go through a series ofsteps these are Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. We first observe and take in all the information around us,we then orient to that informationand run it through the filters of our experience, morals, ethics, desires, etc., we then decide what to do and then we do it.

When a criminal attacks you he is already four steps ahead of you. He is in the Act phase of his OODA loop. He has already observed you and found you to be a desirable target. You on the other hand are on the first stage of your OODA loop as you observe the attack unfolding (hopefully). CC of a firearm does absolutely nothing to affect the attackers OODA loop until you can rally your self to action....at least four steps behind your attacker. OC of a firearm however provides the attacker with information during the initial Observe phase of his loop and that information is that you are most definitely a hard target. It is my contention that CC of a firearm does NOTHING to prevent the attack from ever happening while the deterent effect of OC convinces the majority of criminals to look elswhere.

Now, onto the idea that if a criminal sees the openly carried firearm that they will choose you as a target and make their attack plans in order to steal your gun.If I put a security system in my house with the window decals that say "protected by XYZ alarm systems" could a criminal interested in breaking into my house go on the internet and learn all about XYZ alarm systems and learn how to disarm them? Sure. Could that criminal get a job with XYZ alarm systems and then learn exactly what system I have so he could disarm it and rob me? Sure he could. But the chances are much higher that he will go down the street to find an easier target that doesn't have an alarm system.

Are there people who may target you for your gun? Yes there are, but this is a numbers game and I feel the OC of a pistol will offer a deterent to greater number of people than it will entice.

And due to the way Michigan law is written by OCing AND having a CPL I can legally carry in more places. I can open carry inmost of the PFZswhere a concealed carrier must disarm.

Technical: Others have mentioned they can draw faster from OC and I agree. I also agree that I can carry a larger firearm and as Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch has said:

"I never met a man that had been in a gunfight and wished that he had a smaller gun. Ever."
And for me the most important aspect is that I can easily draw one handed. I don't have to fumble with a cover garment with my off hand. This is important for me becausebeing able to draw one handed frees up my other hand for fending off a physical attack.

Social: CC of a firearm also does nothing to show the antis and theneutrals that law abiding citizens with firearms are not to be feared. They need to see us WITH our firearms, going about our business with our families and doing normal every day things, with guns on our sides. Fear is bred from unfamiliarity and the only way to make people not fear guns is for them to become familiar with them and the only way for them to become familiar with them is to actually SEE them.

Political: This one will be short. A right not used is a right given away. I don't say it's lost because if we freely choose to not usethe rights guaranteed to us by the U.S. and Stateconstitutions then we freely give those rightsaway. They were notlostand nobody took them from us. We rolled over and meeklyhanded them over.

Thanks for askin' :D

Bronson
 

JeffSayers

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Do you really wanna go there with me?, Michigan, U
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It has been touched on a few times in thispost and others about 911 proceedure for mwag calls.

In my limited free time I found that there is a state 911 commission that handles training objectives for every 911 center in the state. (This is not handled on a county basis as someone had indicated to me before.) The training is done through private instructors, 1 of which I am working with now. If osmeone had the time and motivaiton to explore this further we could push the state commission to require this as part of the training regimens.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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lapeer20m wrote:
how long does a department get to respond once they receive a foia request?

still haven't heard anything from two out of three foia's
5 days. They can notify you within that 5 days requesting an additional 5 days, so 10 Max.
 

sevenplusone

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Kent Co, Michigan, USA
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JeffSayers wrote:
It has been touched on a few times in thispost and others about 911 proceedure for mwag calls.

In my limited free time I found that there is a state 911 commission that handles training objectives for every 911 center in the state. (This is not handled on a county basis as someone had indicated to me before.) The training is done through private instructors, 1 of which I am working with now. If osmeone had the time and motivaiton to explore this further we could push the state commission to require this as part of the training regimens.
PM enroute.
 
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