First LEO Interaction

mipatriot · Apr 1, 2010

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Lapeer20, you have a lot of cajones after listening to your Utube police stop. I'm thinking about doing that here in Fenton. I don't quite have the nerve as you do. I'm planning on going to the Durand picnic this Sat. Maybe I'll see you there. Joe Caringi

mipatriot · Apr 1, 2010

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Bronson, this was a concise and well thought out discussion. You have me sold. I'm going to print this one, as it says it all. Going to the picnic in Durand this Sat? Joe

Bronson · Apr 1, 2010

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JoeCar wrote:

Bronson, this was a concise and well thought out discussion. You have me sold. I'm going to print this one, as it says it all. Going to the picnic in Durand this Sat? Joe

Thanks for the kind words and no I won't be there as I must work that day. I will however be at the Portage Gander Mntn. seminar and the Lansing 2nd amendment march.

Bronson

SpringerXDacp · Apr 1, 2010

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Welcome to OCDO Joe.

You canadd your location by going to My Account and then Profile. Pick USA under Country first and then pick Michigan under State.

lapeer20m · Apr 1, 2010

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JoeCar wrote:

Lapeer20, you have a lot of cajones after listening to your Utube police stop.

it's not like that at all!

I open carry almost everywhere i go, oc'ing on a motorcycle is just a normal everyday occurrence for me...weather permitting.

I don't carry to show off, or to cause problems for leo. I carry because nobody is as concerned about my safety as me. I carry open for several reasons, but one of the biggest advantages is that it makes people ask questions, then those people get interested in open carry, then they spread oc to others and it becomes a big snowball effect. I feel that law abiding firearm owning citizens tend to vote for candidates that are pro-freedom which makes a better state and country for all citizens.

lapeer20m · Apr 1, 2010

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Received letters about my foia requests today.

Long story short, the letters state that audio/video related to the stop does not exist. Of the three police cars on scene, apparently none of them had their dash cam's rolling

however, 2 items are available:

There is the police report, and
a memo dated 3/25/10

price is not bad, only $5.00

Bruser 160 · Apr 1, 2010

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I find it interesting that none of the cars had thier dash cams on. Could they be trying to pull a fast one?

mel5051 · Apr 1, 2010

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I agree, considering their roof light bars were activated.

lapeer20m · Apr 1, 2010

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Dropped off the $5.00 in person so they will finish processing my foia request. Tomorrow is Good Friday. I imagine that it will be late next week at the earliest before i receive the documents.

i'm not really into conspiracy theories. I don't think the department has anything to hide. If they say there are no recordings, then i believe that to be the case.

TrekJeff · Apr 3, 2010

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lapeer20m wrote:

Dropped off the $5.00 in person so they will finish processing my foia request. Tomorrow is Good Friday. I imagine that it will be late next week at the earliest before i receive the documents.

i'm not really into conspiracy theories. I don't think the department has anything to hide. If they say there are no recordings, then i believe that to be the case.

As far as how fast they have to respond....copy/pasted via http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/citizen.html

Code:

The FOIA permits an agency to extend the time limits up to 
10 days in unusual circumstances. These circumstances include 
the need to collect records from remote locations, review large 
numbers of records, and consult with other agencies. The agency 
is supposed to notify the requester whenever an extension is 
invoked.\27\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\27\ Agencies that take more than 20 business days to respond to a 
request do not always notify each requester that an extension has been 
invoked.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The statutory time limits for responses are not always met. 
An agency sometimes receives an unexpectedly large number of 
FOIA requests at one time and is unable to meet the deadlines. 
Some agencies assign inadequate resources to FOIA offices. 
Congress does not condone the failure of any agency to meet the 
law's time limits. However, as a practical matter, there is 
little that a requester can do about it. The courts have been 
reluctant to provide relief solely because the FOIA's time 
limits have not been met.
The best advice to requesters is to be patient. The law 
allows a requester to consider that his or her request has been 
denied if it has not been decided within the time limits. This 
permits the requester to file an administrative appeal or file 
a lawsuit in Federal District Court. However, this is not 
always the best course of action. The filing of an 
administrative or judicial appeal will not necessarily result 
in any faster processing of the request.

Phoenixphire · Apr 5, 2010

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lapeer20m wrote:

Dropped off the $5.00 in person so they will finish processing my foia request. Tomorrow is Good Friday. I imagine that it will be late next week at the earliest before i receive the documents.

i'm not really into conspiracy theories. I don't think the department has anything to hide. If they say there are no recordings, then i believe that to be the case.

Yes, yes...

The "blue wall" is just hocus pocus. Police departments would never try to conceal information in order to protect themselves.

The statement above is sarcastic. You should be reconsider your opinion of law enforcement, and think about how surprised you were at the fact that one of the officers was so "disappointed" in your behavior. Just how surprised will you be when you discover that the video cam is linked to the lights/siren, and... OH, MY!... there was some video that they overlooked!?!

Please realize that those who seek power often use it in corrupt forms.

lapeer20m · Apr 8, 2010

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i received the foia documents today.

Memo: from undersheriff to sheriff...

police report from two different officers:

I uploaded them to google docs. I edited them to remove my name address etc

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B00PON9vt2PJMWRkOWU3YzctYjU4OC00MzkxLTlhN2QtN2IxMDAyNzUyNmFl&hl=en

I like how the 2nd officer put into his report that there was a child who looked scared! as if the cause of the childs alarm was from me rather than the 3 police officers on scene.

the first officer also included the part of the conversation where he was disappointed in me, but that I thought out of all people (lapeer county sheriff's dept) would have supported me more than anyone else.

Venator · Apr 8, 2010

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lapeer20m wrote:

i received the foia documents today.

Memo: from undersheriff to sheriff...

police report from two different officers:

I uploaded them to google docs. I edited them to remove my name address etc

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B00PON9vt2PJMWRkOWU3YzctYjU4OC00MzkxLTlhN2QtN2IxMDAyNzUyNmFl&hl=en

I like how the 2nd officer put into his report that there was a child who looked scared! as if the cause of the childs alarm was from me rather than the 3 police officers on scene. I am generally more afraid of a police officer than i am a regular law abiding citizen with a gun. The latter of the two is much less likely to negatively impact my life.

the first officer also included the part of the conversation where he was disappointed in me, but that I thought out of all people (lapeer county sheriff's dept) would have supported me more than anyone else.

One thing for sure these LEO's didn't seem to know much about firearm laws. Why we still get LEO's that think you can't OC with a CPL is beyond me. And you can carry on a motorcycle with a CPL. Man this is sad.

lapeer20m · Apr 8, 2010

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I was quite surprised as well. I did not think there were many officers left in the state that were not aware of open carry.

sevenplusone · Apr 8, 2010

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lapeer20m wrote:

i received the foia documents today.

Memo: from undersheriff to sheriff...

police report from two different officers:

I uploaded them to google docs. I edited them to remove my name address etc

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B00PON9vt2PJMWRkOWU3YzctYjU4OC00MzkxLTlhN2QtN2IxMDAyNzUyNmFl&hl=en

I like how the 2nd officer put into his report that there was a child who looked scared! as if the cause of the childs alarm was from me rather than the 3 police officers on scene. I am generally more afraid of a police officer than i am a regular law abiding citizen with a gun. The latter of the two is much less likely to negatively impact my life.

the first officer also included the part of the conversation where he was disappointed in me, but that I thought out of all people (lapeer county sheriff's dept) would have supported me more than anyone else.

Does the letter state that you were denied the 911 tapes and radio transmissions? We all listened to them earlier in the thread...did you have to contact a different office to get those?

bruiser 160 · Apr 8, 2010

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lapeer20m wrote:

I was quite surprised as well. I did not think there were many officers left in the state that were not aware of open carry.

I think they are aware of it, they just don`t like it and think they can make up thier own rules.:banghead:

lapeer20m · Apr 9, 2010

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sevenplusone wrote:

lapeer20m wrote:

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B00PON9vt2PJMWRkOWU3YzctYjU4OC00MzkxLTlhN2QtN2IxMDAyNzUyNmFl&hl=en

Click to expand...

Does the letter state that you were denied the 911 tapes and radio transmissions? We all listened to them earlier in the thread...did you have to contact a different office to get those?

that is correct. The audio of the radio traffic came from the 911 center. The Sheriff's Department denied the request for any audio/video stating it does not exist within their files...or something like that

PDinDetroit · Apr 9, 2010

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My take on all this (sorry, I have an attitude about this one):

1. They made a stop on you that violated Terry Stop "rules" - Man with a Gun is not in and of itself suspicious, even if threats were made against officials recently (you were not going to the courthouse - just passing by). I would request the evidence of the threats made recently as they directly caused the reason for the stop (in the officer's mind).

2. It is complete and utter CARP that they do not have the video and/or audio of this stop - I bet they made a capricious decision to just deny it. Either they have 3 police officers who willfully violated procedures, 3 cars that have defective dash cam equipment, inadvertently deleted it, or have just outright denied the request as they did not want to be "bothered any further". I would request information on these dash cams - last service date, any issues encountered, etc. In addition, I would request the Audio/Video for all stops that these 3 officers made that day. I think you could also take it to the circuit court, but that may not go anywhere.

3. A discussion with the Chief of Police and/or Sheriff about this stop and what they plan to do to address the situations of Violation of Terry Stop Rules, Violation of 4th Amendment, and the lack of Audio/Video recordings from 3 separate officers. Take notes and express that concerns will be taken to the City Council Meeting and The Press if not addressed to your satisfaction.

lapeer20m · Apr 9, 2010

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Who here thinks the police reports were written/edited AFTER they received the foia request?

There are a few things about the incident that do not add up, but i do not want to pursue issues related to the stop. The goal is to improve relations between open carriers and leo. I would like to talk with the Sheriff to help ensure that future interactions between oc and leo are conducted in a more professional manner.
we all know that being a suspicious person is not a crime, or reasonable suspicion that a person has or is about to commit a crime. Although it may be possible that there is data related to the stop that was not passed along to me, or that the reports were written/edited after they received the foia, I do not think the end result of finding the answers to these questions would be worth the amount of friction it would create. The goal IS being accomplished. They are more aware that oc is not only legal, but it is happening in their community.

The prosecutor should be commended. I may even send him a thank you note for being available, and knowledgeable.

One interesting detail about the one report...the officer included a paragraph about how a small child on a porch directly south of the stop appeared to be afraid. It occurred to me that my strong side was due north. It would not be possible to even notice i was armed if you were looking from the south. I never stepped off my motorcycle.

autosurgeon · Apr 9, 2010

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lapeer20m wrote:

Who here thinks the police reports were written/edited AFTER they received the foia request?

There are a few things about the incident that do not add up, but i do not want to pursue issues related to the stop. The goal is to improve relations between open carriers and leo. I would like to talk with the Sheriff to help ensure that future interactions between oc and leo are conducted in a more professional manner.
we all know that being a suspicious person is not a crime, or reasonable suspicion that a person has or is about to commit a crime. Although it may be possible that there is data related to the stop that was not passed along to me, or that the reports were written/edited after they received the foia, I do not think the end result of finding the answers to these questions would be worth the amount of friction it would create. The goal IS being accomplished. They are more aware that oc is not only legal, but it is happening in their community.

The prosecutor should be commended. I may even send him a thank you note for being available, and knowledgeable.

One interesting detail about the one report...the officer included a paragraph about how a small child on a porch directly south of the stop appeared to be afraid. It occurred to me that my strong side was due north. It would not be possible to even notice i was armed if you were looking from the south. I never stepped off my motorcycle.

That was pure conjecture and would not have stood up in a court of law anyway!

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