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Thread: Need clarification on the federal carry laws

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I remember a time when we as a group were not sure about the whole 1000 ft from a school thing. Now we have members OCing (w/CPL) on school property. I missed the boat when it came to figuring out how it was legal to OC (w/CPL) on school grounds. I understand how it's legal per MI law (MCL 750.234d, MCL 28.425o), but I remember hearing all the time about some federal law pertaining to school carry. Can someone please clarify this for me?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    I remember a time when we as a group were not sure about the whole 1000 ft from a school thing. Now we have members OCing (w/CPL) on school property. I missed the boat when it came to figuring out how it was legal to OC (w/CPL) on school grounds. I understand how it's legal per MI law (MCL 750.234d, MCL 28.425o), but I remember hearing all the time about some federal law pertaining to school carry. Can someone please clarify this for me?
    Yes the federal law left it up to the states on how they wanted to control that. Some state have copied the federal law and others like Michigan have their own. If the state is silent on this then federal law is in play and would need (I think) be prosecuted under federal law using federal LEOs.

    The federal law has language in it that deals with a person licensed by the state (not clear on what that means, it's not define in the federal law) they are exempt from the federal restrictions.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Do you know where I can find the federal law pertaining to the subject?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    google

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    dougwg wrote:
    google
    lol.

    Yup. That's how I find it.

    gun free school zone act

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    It can be linked to from this page.

    Bronson
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    MCL 28.425 o tells everyone who isn't an all important, ultra trained donut eating cop with a level of firearm proficiency us mere mortals can never hope to attain, where we can't carry concealed.

    MCL 750.234d and MCL 750.237 also both list off the places that are restricted from carry. They exempt people who are licensed by this state or another state to carry concealed pistols

    The gun free school zones act (TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > §922922) exempts people who are licensed to carry by their home state. Unconstitutional as hell, and in my opinion therefore invalid, but it's still there.

    So clearly, when you stack all this up, it is legal for CPL holders to open carry in the places that are prohibited in MCL 28.425 o, because it doesn’t deal with open carry, and MCL 750.234d and MCL 750.237 don’t even apply to CPL holders.

    Also important to know is that Michigan Act 372 of 1927 among other things describes Michigan’s pistol registration process as a “license to carry”. Threfore, in Michigan, a non CPL holding resident OCer with a lawfully registered to him or her handgun can be as close to a k-12 school as they wish while lawfully OCing, so long as they don’t actually set foot on the property of the school.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Bronson wrote:
    It can be linked to from this page.

    Bronson
    Thanks! I found the cite I needed from that page. I learned something important today!

    :celebrate
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    I believe Michigander is referring to 750-237a as the statute against carrying a weapon in a "weapon free school zone". As he mentioned, CPL holders are exempt.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-237a

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following: (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    Definitions:

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12. (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Also, I've observed MCL 750.234d referenced here and elsewhere in reference to school carry, but note that it does not include schools in it's list of restricted areas. The school restriction is in 750.237a, above.
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-234d



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    CoonDog wrote:
    I believe Michigander is referring to 750-237a as the statute against carrying a weapon in a "weapon free school zone". As he mentioned, CPL holders are exempt.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-237a

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following: (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    Definitions:

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12. (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Also, I've observed MCL 750.234d referenced here and elsewhere in reference to school carry, but note that it does not include schools in it's list of restricted areas. The school restriction is in 750.237a, above.
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-234d

    Does this include parking lots even though they are not spelled out in this list? I think yes because they are used for functions and events sponsered by a school.

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    maustin195 wrote:
    CoonDog wrote:
    I believe Michigander is referring to 750-237a as the statute against carrying a weapon in a "weapon free school zone". As he mentioned, CPL holders are exempt.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-237a

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following: (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    Definitions:

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12. (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Also, I've observed MCL 750.234d referenced here and elsewhere in reference to school carry, but note that it does not include schools in it's list of restricted areas. The school restriction is in 750.237a, above.
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-234d

    Does this include parking lots even though they are not spelled out in this list? I think yes because they are used for functions and events sponsered by a school.
    If you do not have a CPL you can not carry a firearm on school grounds which included the parking lot.

    If you have a CPL you can carry concealed in a school parking lot and OC anywhere else on school grounds.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Yes, but only if picking up or droppiung off your child at their school. Correct?

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Yes, but only if picking up or droppiung off your child at their school. Correct?
    Incorrect - you may conceal if you remain in your vehicle while picking up/dropping off your child anywhere on school property.

    You may conceal in school parking lots whether or not you're in your vehicle and whether or not you're picking up your child.

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    This is whats screwing with me.When I read the laws, my head turns to mush.


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    This is whats screwing with me.When I read the laws, my head turns to mush.


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    You need to read all of 28.425o and all of 750.237a to ascertain what "school property" is defined as and the restrictions thereon.







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    When I took my concealed carry class, the lawyer for our class told us that we could cc only in a school parking lot and had to stay in the vehicle when dropping off or picking up our kids. It was told to us that we are not allowed to cc in a school building. This came from a lawyer that was instrumental in getting the concealed carry law passed.

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    bruiser 160 wrote:
    When I took my concealed carry class, the lawyer for our class told us that we could cc only in a school parking lot and had to stay in the vehicle when dropping off or picking up our kids. It was told to us that we are not allowed to cc in a school building. This came from a lawyer that was instrumental in getting the concealed carry law passed.
    The cited statutes in the above post are the law. They are very specific.






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    bruiser 160 wrote:
    When I took my concealed carry class, the lawyer for our class told us that we could cc only in a school parking lot and had to stay in the vehicle when dropping off or picking up our kids. It was told to us that we are not allowed to cc in a school building. This came from a lawyer that was instrumental in getting the concealed carry law passed.
    If you read the statute and go to the bottom of the list of places you can't conceal you will find a general exemption to parking lots which includes schools. The dropping of part was in play before they amended the law a few years latter to exempt parking lots and didn't bother to change the wording about dropping off/up.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    bruiser 160 wrote:
    When I took my concealed carry class, the lawyer for our class told us that we could cc only in a school parking lot and had to stay in the vehicle when dropping off or picking up our kids. It was told to us that we are not allowed to cc in a school building. This came from a lawyer that was instrumental in getting the concealed carry law passed.
    If you read the statute and go to the bottom of the list of places you can't conceal you will find a general exemption to parking lots which includes schools. The dropping of part was in play before they amended the law a few years latter to exempt parking lots and didn't bother to change the wording about dropping off/up.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    Thank you yhat was exactly what I was looking for.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    This is whats screwing with me.When I read the laws, my head turns to mush.
    That's because laws are written by lawyers, so that only lawyers can figure them out.

    We need to kick all the lawyers out of Congress and the state legislatures and have the laws re-done by laymen so that everyone can understand them. Yeah, like that will ever happen.
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    This is whats screwing with me.When I read the laws, my head turns to mush.
    That's because laws are written by lawyers, so that only lawyers can figure them out.

    We need to kick all the lawyers out of Congress and the state legislatures and have the laws re-done by laymen so that everyone can understand them. Yeah, like that will ever happen.
    I wrote the MI House Of Representatives Members last year about some of the wording of a bill. They took that suggestion to heart, even if the bills have not yet been passed.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    So this is a little offrom theOP but what about other school grounds besides the parking lot I.E. playgrounds sports fields? i take my godkids to the school at the end of my roadto playthey dont attend the school yet but it is open for the public to use the playground i havent carried there yet but i would like to with the amount of stranger danger issues that keep popping up

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    Zukirider wrote:
    So this is a little offrom theOP but what about other school grounds besides the parking lot I.E. playgrounds sports fields? i take my godkids to the school at the end of my roadto playthey dont attend the school yet but it is open for the public to use the playground i havent carried there yet but i would like to with the amount of stranger danger issues that keep popping up
    If you have a CPL you can OC there, but can not conceal carry any place other than a parking lot.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  24. #24
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    even though my kids dont go to the school im still allowed to OC? i thought only if your child or child you are a legal guardian to was a student at that school i maybe incorect on that though

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    Zukirider wrote:
    even though my kids dont go to the school im still allowed to OC? i thought only if your child or child you are a legal guardian to was a student at that school i maybe incorect on that though
    If you have a CPL you can OC in or on any public K-12 school.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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