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Thread: LEO encounter at a hospital

  1. #1
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    I went to Mercy Hospital in Muskegon yesterday to visit with a friend. I had been in the building about 20 min. when 2 security personal located me in the waiting room and asked to talk to me in the hall. I said of course what can I do for you? They of course inquired about my firearm and said it was hospital policy not to allow any weapons in the hospital. I informed them I saw nothing posted at the entrance to that effect, and said it was on all the doors. I informed them their doors referred directly to concealed carry, which is illegal and mine was in plain sight. They looked puzzled and said do to policy I would need to lock it in my vehicle. So I did. Upon reentryone of themasked for my name and said that I could lose my CPL for carrying like that, I smiled and saidshe was misinformed, her partner agreed and said they wouldn't follow up on anything, to which I replied, "good, because there was nothing to follow up on". Again they looked puzzled.

    I had returned to the waiting room for about 10 min. when the head of security came in and said there was 2 LEO’s at the front door’s that wanted to talk to me. As we made our way to the entrance he informed me he had a CPL and knew that what I had done was against the law and I would lose my permit. I tried to explain things to him and quickly decided to let the LEO’s handle it.

    When we reached the entrance the LEO’s asked the usual questions, why were you carrying a gun, do you have a CCW, can I see your identification? Even after I gave him my CPL he asked me if I had a CCW permit, to which I replied “there is no such thing as a CCW permit”. He then asked if the gun was still in the vehicle, I said yes, he said is it covered so no one could see and possibly steal it. I informed him it was in the vehicle and you know in MI if it is in a vehicle it was concealed, he did not seem amused and told me not to be smart.

    After he talked to me, and his partner talked to the security supervisor, they decided to run me for warrants (always their last ditch effort). When I came back clean his partner asked me if I understood that open carry and concealed carry were two different things and could not have it both ways. I said no I do not understand that and I believe you are wrong. He said “then we are not done yet” if you don’t understand you will have to talk to my Sgt.; do you want me to call him down here? I said sure when he gets here tell him I am in the cafeteria. He informed me I needed to wait here with them by the entrance, I said no, I had done nothing wrong and if the Sgt. wanted to talk to me he could come and find me. After checking with the hospital security to make sure they wanted me back in the building they agreed I could go about my business. I did not find out until latter that during the time I went back to the cafeteria and when the Sgt. got there they had officers at all the exits. I’m not sure what the rest of the city was doing, but they had me covered.

    When the Sgt. arrived it was pretty short, he said he spoke to the prosecutor and what I had done was illegal, but I would not be charged this time, and if I disagreed, to investigate a little more and take it up with one of the city prosecutors. Which I fully intend to do!

    I have already sent a letter to the hospital administrator outlining the legality of my actions, and my disapproval of their security staff and how they handled the encounter. Next I am going to follow up with the prosecutor, and I am undecided on requesting an FOIA.

  2. #2
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Wow, that's ridiculous. It seems like you're following up appropriately.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    SIGfreed wrote:
    I went to Mercy Hospital in Muskegon yesterday to visit with a friend. I had been in the building about 20 min. when 2 security personal located me in the waiting room and asked to talk to me in the hall. I said of course what can I do for you? They of course inquired about my firearm and said it was hospital policy not to allow any weapons in the hospital. I informed them I saw nothing posted at the entrance to that effect, and said it was on all the doors. I informed them their doors referred directly to concealed carry, which is illegal and mine was in plain sight. They looked puzzled and said do to policy I would need to lock it in my vehicle. So I did. Upon reentryone of themasked for my name and said that I could lose my CPL for carrying like that, I smiled and saidshe was misinformed, her partner agreed and said they wouldn't follow up on anything, to which I replied, "good, because there was nothing to follow up on". Again they looked puzzled.

    I had returned to the waiting room for about 10 min. when the head of security came in and said there was 2 LEO’s at the front door’s that wanted to talk to me. As we made our way to the entrance he informed me he had a CPL and knew that what I had done was against the law and I would lose my permit. I tried to explain things to him and quickly decided to let the LEO’s handle it.

    When we reached the entrance the LEO’s asked the usual questions, why were you carrying a gun, do you have a CCW, can I see your identification? Even after I gave him my CPL he asked me if I had a CCW permit, to which I replied “there is no such thing as a CCW permit”. He then asked if the gun was still in the vehicle, I said yes, he said is it covered so no one could see and possibly steal it. I informed him it was in the vehicle and you know in MI if it is in a vehicle it was concealed, he did not seem amused and told me not to be smart.

    After he talked to me, and his partner talked to the security supervisor, they decided to run me for warrants (always their last ditch effort). When I came back clean his partner asked me if I understood that open carry and concealed carry were two different things and could not have it both ways. I said no I do not understand that and I believe you are wrong. He said “then we are not done yet” if you don’t understand you will have to talk to my Sgt.; do you want me to call him down here? I said sure when he gets here tell him I am in the cafeteria. He informed me I needed to wait here with them by the entrance, I said no, I had done nothing wrong and if the Sgt. wanted to talk to me he could come and find me. After checking with the hospital security to make sure they wanted me back in the building they agreed I could go about my business. I did not find out until latter that during the time I went back to the cafeteria and when the Sgt. got there they had officers at all the exits. I’m not sure what the rest of the city was doing, but they had me covered.

    When the Sgt. arrived it was pretty short, he said he spoke to the prosecutor and what I had done was illegal, but I would not be charged this time, and if I disagreed, to investigate a little more and take it up with one of the city prosecutors. Which I fully intend to do!

    I have already sent a letter to the hospital administrator outlining the legality of my actions, and my disapproval of their security staff and how they handled the encounter. Next I am going to follow up with the prosecutor, and I am undecided on requesting an FOIA.
    Not commenting on anything else. The fact they covered all the exits. Had you tried to leave, and they not let, would that not be a detention? Me personally would consider it a detainment just having them at the door. It's most certainly not free to go...Or a they were just bluffing...with the power we gave them.

    You handled it about as well as anyone could expect. Way to stay assertive, and yet almost neutral. Shining example of how to be assertive and cooperative.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Yes. FOIA.

    Find out how much money they spent to have that many officers spend that much time bothering someone for a completely lawful activity.

    In your situation I might've asked 'specifically what law am I violating?' so you can point out their error...

    Although more likely I would've asked if I was being detained, and upon receiving any answer other than 'no' I would have called 911 and had them send MSP to assist with an unlawful detainment by LEO.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Here is the pure and simple truth. While they told you they could arrest you they did not. This tells me they could not. If they could they would have. My guess is they are just hoping they scared you enough that you will not OC again.

    If you need any help with this feel free to PM or email me.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    I did ask if I was being detained, the answer was yes, so they could check my record. He never adequately answered me when asked about a specific crime.

    As for having the place surrounded it is still hearsay, but had I heard it, I definitely would have called their bluff.

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Here is the pure and simple truth. While they told you they could arrest you they did not. This tells me they could not. If they could they would have. My guess is they are just hoping they scared you enough that you will not OC again.
    Agreed.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    If they could not provide RAS for your admitted detainment they were in violation of your rights.

    Also, I was suggesting a FOIA partly because a properly worded FOIA could easily confirm or contradict their claim that they surrounded the building.


    ETA: and if they did it was a gross misappropriation of resources.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    If they could not provide RAS for your admitted detainment they were in violation of your rights.

    Also, I was suggesting a FOIA partly because a properly worded FOIA could easily confirm or contradict their claim that they surrounded the building.


    ETA: and if they did it was a gross misappropriation of resources.
    Try to make friends first.....

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    If they could not provide RAS for your admitted detainment they were in violation of your rights.

    Also, I was suggesting a FOIA partly because a properly worded FOIA could easily confirm or contradict their claim that they surrounded the building.


    ETA: and if they did it was a gross misappropriation of resources.
    Try to make friends first.....
    Yes, alas, doug is right. try to make friends first, I'm not suggesting you don't!

    I wasn't even saying to use the FOIA to do anything nasty, I was only suggesting it could help you sort out whether they were telling you the truth or not. Just because you have a nuke does not mean you should detonate it.

    The comments I made may sound begrudging, but they are merely pessimistic.

    You seem to be handling it well. Just want you prepared in case relations deteriorate.

    Sic vis pacem, para bellum

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    Thank you gentlemen, I do my best to make all my encounters friendly one's.

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    SIGfreed wrote:


    When the Sgt. arrived it was pretty short, he said he spoke to the prosecutor and what I had done was illegal, but I would not be charged this time, and if I disagreed, to investigate a little more and take it up with one of the city prosecutors. Which I fully intend to do!

    This is the quote that scares me. He didn't say you wouldn't be charged at all. We have seen on a couple of occasions that people are being charged at a later date. It would be prudent to get your ducks in a row, just in case.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    If they could not provide RAS for your admitted detainment they were in violation of your rights.

    Also, I was suggesting a FOIA partly because a properly worded FOIA could easily confirm or contradict their claim that they surrounded the building.


    ETA: and if they did it was a gross misappropriation of resources.
    Try to make friends first.....
    Yes, alas, doug is right. try to make friends first, I'm not suggesting you don't!

    I wasn't even saying to use the FOIA to do anything nasty, I was only suggesting it could help you sort out whether they were telling you the truth or not. Just because you have a nuke does not mean you should detonate it.

    The comments I made may sound begrudging, but they are merely pessimistic.

    You seem to be handling it well. Just want you prepared in case relations deteriorate.

    Sic vis pacem, para bellum
    Keep in mind that once the FOIA request is submitted, they will see it as aggressive action regardless of the intent.

    Too bad to, because its interesting stuff.

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    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    I admited to carrying my firearm into the hospital, and I am certain it is on video somewhere, therefore they had cause to ask for both ID and CPL.

    And yes, they were fishing very hard.

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    And, record, record, record! Audio and, if possible video. Covertly. This is the best investment you can make when exercising OC. Especially in such controversial place as hospital.

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    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    * I admited to carrying my firearm into the hospital, and I am certain it is on video somewhere, therefore they had cause to ask for both ID and CPL.

    * And yes, they were fishing very hard.
    Open Carrying in a hospital is completely legal. There is no law stating you must disclose (Produce ID/CPL) because you're open carrying in a PFZ.

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    Agreed! The law only requires you to disclose and or provide your papers when you are actually carrying concealed when stopped by Leo
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    I don't know if I would have went down to them, unless the security forced the issue. I would not have produced ID, or CPL. Being friendly is one thing but this conversation went to far for too long. In this case I'd F.O.I.A. to protect your buttock.

    You need to get a voice recorder too!

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    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    Here's a question:

    What would they do if he hadn't had any ID/CPL to produce because he was sterile open carrying?


    Hold him until they prove he is legal?

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    mikestilly wrote:
    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    * I admited to carrying my firearm into the hospital, and I am certain it is on video somewhere, therefore they had cause to ask for both ID and CPL.

    * And yes, they were fishing very hard.
    Open Carrying in a hospital is completely legal. There is no law stating you must disclose (Produce ID/CPL) because you're open carrying in a PFZ.
    Ok, someone should clarify this for me. Clearly it is illegal to CC in the hospital since it is one of the PFZs for CPL holders. It is also clear that OC in a hospital is legal if person has CPL. Now, can LEO demand that I produce CPL while in the hospital to proof that I am allowed to OC? And, if I am not required to produce CPL, then how would LEO ever catch anybody OC without CPL unless person admits not having CPL? Seems to me that person without CPL can OC with impunity in this case? What am I missing?

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    ghostrider wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    Here's a question:

    What would they do if he hadn't had any ID/CPL to produce because he was sterile open carrying?


    Hold him until they prove he is legal?
    Hold him under what probable cause? What reasonable articulated suspicion?

  23. #23
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    mikestilly wrote:
    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    I admitted to carrying my firearm into the hospital, and I am certain it is on video somewhere, therefore they had cause to ask for both ID and CPL.

    And yes, they were fishing very hard.
    Open Carrying in a hospital is completely legal. There is no law stating you must disclose (Produce ID/CPL) because you're open carrying in a PFZ.
    I disagree, they only way I can open carry in a GFZ is with a CPL, therefore by doing so I am utilizing my CPL and must disclose when asked for ID.

  24. #24
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    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    I admitted to carrying my firearm into the hospital, and I am certain it is on video somewhere, therefore they had cause to ask for both ID and CPL.

    And yes, they were fishing very hard.
    Open Carrying in a hospital is completely legal. There is no law stating you must disclose (Produce ID/CPL) because you're open carrying in a PFZ.
    I disagree, they only way I can open carry in a GFZ is with a CPL, therefore by doing so I am utilizing my CPL and must disclose when asked for ID.
    I'll bet that's what most LEO's and prosecutors would believe also. (except for the totally ignorant ones who'll think you just can't carry period.) Correctly or not, I don't know. But if you're in a normally PFZ, but that PFZ becomes legal if you OC AND have a CPL, then the CPL becomes a cornerstone to your legality. Unfortunately.
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  25. #25
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    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    SIGfreed wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    ID, CPL, running your record.. fishing fishing fishing. Like watching the outdoor channel. I wouldnt have produced any of that for them .. It would have had to been illegally seized.
    I admitted to carrying my firearm into the hospital, and I am certain it is on video somewhere, therefore they had cause to ask for both ID and CPL.

    And yes, they were fishing very hard.
    Open Carrying in a hospital is completely legal. There is no law stating you must disclose (Produce ID/CPL) because you're open carrying in a PFZ.
    I disagree, they only way I can open carry in a GFZ is with a CPL, therefore by doing so I am utilizing my CPL and must disclose when asked for ID.
    I thought that disclosure was required when concealed carrying.

    How is this concealed?

    Watch for the UFO.

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