May not be a good day for Police Officer !

imported post

I'm with Erps. It was a blanket statement, and totally inappropriate. On that note it's his/her loss if they don't trust cops because 1 cop goes crazy. Certainly doesn't do anything to help the "gun owners are all paranoid" line I read all too often.

imported post

erps did not come out and directly call anyone a bigot, but make a general statement.

If you are offended then you should be looking in the mirror for self reflection.

These childish idiots that always want to call the Troll Card when someone else has a different view, get over it and yourself.

What is amazing there are those who would be offended when such a statement was made about the legally armed but then direct it toward law enforcement.

imported post

BigDave wrote:

erps did not come out and directly call anyone a bigot, but make a general statement.

If you are offended then you should be looking in the mirror for self reflection.

These childish idiots that always want to call the Troll Card when someone else has a different view, get over it and yourself.

Click to expand...

EDIT: Cite for those who don't already know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

imported post

killchain wrote:

Click to expand...

POINT CONFIRMED

imported post

I was last stopped and given a ticket in, uh, it was a long time ago, maybe 1978.

Needless to say I'm not all that familiar with being accosted by LEOs.

I do have this fear, though, since I am handicapped, that some more-twitchy-than-average officer might some day stop my for whatever reason (maybe my car matches a description of one involved in an armed robbery or something) and see my inability to comply with some shouted demand of theirs as willful non-compliance.

Does this cause me to be afraid of police officers? Not really, because most of them I've met appear to be reasonable and decent human beings. Thing is, there are some out there that are not.

I suspect a part of that problem is that after dealing with so many "bad guys" and seeing almost nothing BUT bad guys in their day-to-day job (or at the very least having people lie to them on a regular basis) they become a bit jaded and begin viewing everyone as a bad guy and subject to their every whim.

Even just "keep your hands up and step out of the vehicle" isn't something that is going to happen, no mater how many times someone yells it at me. Demanding "face away and walk backwards towards my voice" is not going to happen, either.

Hopefully whoever stops me will also keep his mind and ears open and listen to me say "unable to comply" (pilots will understand that) and understand it is not choice but necessity.

Sadly, that is where the fear I first mentioned comes from: Fully expecting anything I attempt to say to be completely ignored by a single-minded focus on total compliance as the shouted demands keep getting louder and louder until some thug decides I'm willfully not complying and escalates. Hopefully I will survive.

imported post

Tomas wrote:

I suspect a part of that problem is that after dealing with so many "bad guys" and seeing almost nothing BUT bad guys in their day-to-day job (or at the very least having people lie to them on a regular basis) they become a bit jaded and begin viewing everyone as a bad guy and subject to their every whim.

Click to expand...

If they become jaded they need to get a different job, before they kill someone like Everett Police Officer Troy Meade did !

imported post

Tomas wrote:

I was last stopped and given a ticket in, uh, it was a long time ago, maybe 1978.

Needless to say I'm not all that familiar with being accosted by LEOs.

I do have this fear, though, since I am handicapped, that some more-twitchy-than-average officer might some day stop my for whatever reason (maybe my car matches a description of one involved in an armed robbery or something) and see my inability to comply with some shouted demand of theirs as willful non-compliance.

Does this cause me to be afraid of police officers? Not really, because most of them I've met appear to be reasonable and decent human beings. Thing is, there are some out there that are not.

I suspect a part of that problem is that after dealing with so many "bad guys" and seeing almost nothing BUT bad guys in their day-to-day job (or at the very least having people lie to them on a regular basis) they become a bit jaded and begin viewing everyone as a bad guy and subject to their every whim.

Even just "keep your hands up and step out of the vehicle" isn't something that is going to happen, no mater how many times someone yells it at me. Demanding "face away and walk backwards towards my voice" is not going to happen, either.

Hopefully whoever stops me will also keep his mind and ears open and listen to me say "unable to comply" (pilots will understand that) and understand it is not choice but necessity.

Sadly, that is where the fear I first mentioned comes from: Fully expecting anything I attempt to say to be completely ignored by a single-minded focus on total compliance as the shouted demands keep getting louder and louder until some thug decides I'm willfully not complying and escalates. Hopefully I will survive.

Click to expand...

Reminds me of acall some time agowhen I was in a house looking for a suspect. It was night/dark, and I went into a bedroom and shined my light on a guy in a bed, under the covers. Mygun was out (of course) and I ordered him to show me his hands. He woke up looking terrified, and didn't say anything, or move his hands from under the blankets. I began to get a little more concerned, and again ordered him to show me his hands. He then said that he didn't have any hands, and as he sat up, I saw that he had both arms amputated at the shoulders. As it turned out he wasn't the right guy (no I wasn't in the wrong house) and we wound up laughing about it later.

imported post

"I don't think an officer who is on duty - who is sworn to uphold the law - should ever be charged with a crime like that," said the attorney, David Allen.

Now there's a statement. If a cop murders someone while on duty don't charge him with a crime. No, no, no: a one day suspension (with pay, of course) is more than enough.......


Gotta love the cop apologists. I keep hoping it'll be their kid getting beaten/tased/shot next.

imported post

I wasn't going to post in this thread due to the nature of a couple posts and certain individuals' clear anti-cop bias, but I can't let this statement go:

I suspect a part of that problem is that after dealing with so many "bad guys" and seeing almost nothing BUT bad guys in their day-to-day job (or at the very least having people lie to them on a regular basis) they become a bit jaded and begin viewing everyone as a bad guy and subject to their every whim.

Click to expand...

You would be wrong. In the course of one's day-to-day routine, one is not encountering "almost nothing BUT bad guys." Much of the day is consumed by transit time, routine traffic stuff, admin duties, training, but mostly, encounters with normal, cheerful, law abiding citizens. (Of course, I might be giving you a different answer if I worked third watch in the Hilltop.)

My point, though, is thatalmost every single law enforcement professional I know is capable of recognizing the difference between Joe Citizen and Joe Scumbag, and Joe Citizen is always treated with respect, despite the internet ramblings of those who always seem to be recounting cases of officer disrespect during the myriad traffic stops the poster seems to be a magnet for ...

Nowhere but on the internet do I encounter such strong anti-LE feelings, by the way. Most citizens have a cheery smile and a "hi, how ya doin'" attitude.

Although, yes, one gets lied to routinely. It's not a new thing, but a criminal's first reesponse is always, "It wasn't me, I didn't do it." Even the guy I arrested once for public urination/indecent exposure, who'd peed all over the wall of a grocery store in the parking lot -- I was having a smoke 50 feet away, watching in amazement, since he'd clearly looked around, seen me -- and the white, marked car -- before whipping it out. I was only going to warn him, but the he said, "It wasn't me, it musta been someone else you seen. You're only pickin' on my 'cause I'm the only black man out here." Normal stuff.

Anyway, as far as the Everett case -- it's precisely because the upstanding members of Meade's department knew he was wrong and are doing the right thing -- which every cop I know would do -- that he's being prosecuted for his crime (and it was a crime, not real law enforcement).


As far as this "thin blue line" crap? Doesn't exist anymore around here. You'll have your brothers (and sisters) lining up to write paper on you (or testify against you in court) if you're the kind of scumbag officer that can't do your job right, with honor and honesty.

imported post

I dunno what normal citizens are cheery and engaging with police officers. I'm happy they exist and do their jobs, and I was raised as a kid to be polite to police and that police were there to help us.

Even before I started carrying, though, I always felt nervous / uncomfortable around uniformed officers. I never did anything illegal (unless you count downloading TV shows illegal), but there's still that feeling of "what if".

Knowing that they're always listening, and are likely to report you for any crime even when off-duty, I don't know if I'd even feel comfortable chatting with an officer off-duty (or hanging out at the bar with them) in the off-chance that I say something accidentally incriminating (oh no, the light turned red before my taillights cleared the intersection - no, I didn't know leaving my car idling in the driveway was illegal, etc.)

How can you talk with someone who's sworn to uphold the law and can and will use anything you say against you in court, when you don't (can't) know all of the law unless you're a lawyer? You could be doing 50 illegal things a day without knowing it.

Yeah, it's not likely they're going to arrest you for something the general public doesn't know is illegal, but can you really take that chance? If I had a choice between someone I know won't arrest me for something I say and someone who has a 1% chance of arresting me for something I say, who do you think I'm going to avoid?

I like a lot of officers (who used to hang out at the range I went to) - they usually have pretty awesome personalities and interests - but I don't dare talk casually with them. Is there any way around this?

imported post

Hi, Bo.

Good reply - sorry if what I wrote might have struck you as a little prickly.

Your reply included the phrase "...during the myriad traffic stops the poster seems to be a magnet for..." shortly after quoting from my earlier post. I hope that wasn't aimed in my direction (my last ticket may have been before many posters here were born).

It still does actually concern me how an officer would differentiate my inability to comply from willful non compliance.

(Hopefully, also, I'm not one you are viewing as "anti-cop." Hard to tell for sure.)

Tom

imported post

Hey, Tomas, no, but your remark that I quoted did prompt my post ... I noted you stated you'd not been pulled over for some 30 years ... It just seems sometimes that those that display the most virulentanti-cop bias and relate multiple negative encounters with copsalso self-disclose that they seem to get pulled over far more often than your average driver ...

imported post

I can see that a lot of you did not read this part "fortunatly the vast majority are not like this."

There are reports everyday of LEOs breaking the law and a lot of the time it involves the average citizen. LEOs violatecitizens rights, assault them and lie everyday watch the news, read the paper etc. I have personaly been on the recieving end. This stuff happens way too often to just blindly trust just any old LEO you happen to run into on the street. I dont talk to LEOs, I dont disrespect them either, they have a job to do and its a hard one.

I know the odds are long but I occasionaly purchase a Lottery ticket, so if I think I might win the lotto, I should also think I might run into a bad LEO.

I am not LEO bashing, I am anti criminal and it doesnt matter to me whatthat criminaldoes for a living.

IMO LE needs to police its selfa lot better thanit does now, I also think LE is doing a much better job now than in the past.

When LE gets treated like everyday people things will improve for everyone.

By the way I am not a bigit, comemeet my friends and family they are a mixed lot and have even includedseveral LEOs over the years.

The double standard is showing on this thread. Its OK for an LEOtobewary of a citizenbut its not OK for the citizen to bewary of LE. It really is a level playing field. LEOs seem to get angry whenI legaly assertmy rights and threaten, lie ect to try to get their way.

imported post

Orphan wrote:

I can see that a lot of you did not read this part "fortunatly the vast majority are not like this."

I know the odds are long but I occasionaly purchase a Lottery ticket, so if I think I might win the lotto, I should also think I might run into a bad LEO.

The double standard is showing on this thread. Its OK for an LEOtobewary of a citizenbut its not OK for the citizen to bewary of LE. It really is a level playing field. LEOs seem to get angry whenI legaly assertmy rights and threaten, lie ect to try to get their way.

Click to expand...

Well, according to the FBI figures for 2007 (newest I found looking quickly) there are 699,850 sworn law enforcement officers in the United States (at all levels).

With those numbers, even if there is only ONE bad cop in that entire bunch, your chances of getting him are probably better than your chances of winning the lottery...
________

You mentioned also equal treatment for LEO and the rest of us, but that actually can never really happen. Even just in the simple day-to-day interactions between the two, the LEO is legally allowed to lie to the civilian, sometimes even required to by the job, yet the civilian can and is prosecuted on a regular basis for the very same activity toward the LEO. (I wonder if the "legal permission to lie" as part of the job might influence in some subtle way the exaggeration, fabrication, and outright lying one sees in some police reports?)
________

Even with roughly 700,000 officers and 302,000,000 civilians (1 officer for every 430 civilians) the balance of power is still vastly in the favor of the officers as legally they are given a much broader range of accepted action than are civilians.

In reality the LEOs and the vast majority of non-LEOs should all be on the same side, working for the same thing, but there is a wall that has been built. We need to determine the source of that wall so it can be removed.
________

Sadly, this thread has now divided into a broader "them vs us" thread instead of discussing the questionable actions of the individual officer we started with.

Getting back to that, even counting the statements of his fellow officers (as if they are somehow more "true" than statements of others...), it does NOT appear that the officer or others were in imminent danger when he shot the civilian in the back seven times, killing him, and that the action was intentional.

By simple reading of state law there do NOT appear to have been adequate grounds for the employment of lethal force in that instance, and had a CIVILIAN shot the person in the back in the same physical situation, there would be little if any question of guilt...

(He wouldn't get out of his car so I shot him in the back and killed him...)

imported post

erps wrote:

Dude ... you are way off track !

Click to expand...

I couldbe, but try it yourself and see how it sounds. Substitute LEO for Jew or black or any other minority group and see how it sounds. I would demonstrate it myself, but I don't want that kind of language associated with my name.

Click to expand...

Substitute used car salesman or lawyer and see how it sounds. LEO is a CAREER. It is a CHOSEN profession.

I don't like ants (no really, I don't - one of the few creatures that really kinda freak me out).

Ants? You don't like ants? Well substitute Jew or black and see how it sounds!! I denounce myself for being racist!! What?? That's apples and oranges and at best a straw man?? Oh .... :banghead: