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Thread: My First MWAG Call

  1. #1
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    Yes, it finally happened TO ME.

    Another guy (John Carter) and I met up this morning at Tully's Coffeehouse over in the Marketplace Shopping Center in Nampa. No real agenda, just drink some coffee and plan out what we want to think about for the next meeting and summer activity list in a general sort of way.

    When I arrived (about 9:35AM) I noticed 2 police officers out front but they had apparently just tanked up on coffee and scones or whatever and were heading out for their shift. One even passed me as he went to the car and didn't notice my OC condition (short, bomber-style jacket was swept back behind the gun's grip).

    So, I go inside and took the jacket off, unpacked my PC and order a coffee, moving to a better table when one opened up a few moments later. John arrives about 10:00 or so. We were fine for about 2 hours when another officer (Nampa PD) arrives at the door, sweeps the room with a look which made me think, "I wonder...?" but then headed for the coffee counter. Maybe I was wrong and this is where Nampa cops routinely top off their tanks? A few minutes later though another cop pulls up, here we go.

    The first cop comes up to our table and says something like, "Excuse me, you guys doing okay?I reply to the effect of "Yep, we're fine officer." He says, "Well we got a call and I was wondering if anything was going on?" Me again: "No Sir, just sitting drinking coffee and talking." The officer then asked, "Do you have concealed carry permits?" I replied, "I do." (Note: My apology to John because I did add something to the effect that John didn't have one and wasn't CC'ing.) I pulled out my DL and handed it to him, followed a couple of minutes later with my permt. John declined to provide ID but gave the officer his name and DL#.

    We chatted about people calling in that there were men with guns at the location and that they were probably just unaware that Idaho law allows this. He called us in, got back all-clears and life moved on. He seemed calm and at ease, just solid police officers doing their jobs.

    We asked the two counter staff about it after he left and they said yes 3-4 customers told them there were men with guns sitting there. They were unsure who called it in and neither took credit for making a/the call.

    So, Tully's did not refuse service or indicate we were not welcome. We finished our coffees and left about an hour or so later.

    The Nampa Police responded well (IMO), were polite and not openly seekingto escalateconfrontation of any type. I am not one of those who gets all upset about providing ID when asked respectfully and believe it is reasonable for the officer to feel unthreatened by the situation. They knew the law and you beingcalm will calm them considerably.

    The 911 dispatchers got another MWAG call which proved to be legal and a non-event.

    The customers saw other customers who were armed, amiablychatting with police officers, no arrests and no bloodbath resulted.

    Educational for all concerned, IMO.

    So, I endorse getting out more. Dispatchers need to become used to these calls and learn to screen them better. They will do that after the 2000th (or whatever the magic number is) call and the police get them to understand how to better define to citizens the difference between normal people carrying guns and those who are a potential danger to the community. When all parties (customers, carriers, business owners, police and dispatchers) become more used to lawful carry situations, the fear will drop, police will get on with crime prevention/solutionand the attendant tensions will drain off.



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    yup it was fun.

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    Hey Ed,

    I see you posted that you were going to be at the coffee shop the day or a few days before. I wouldn't be surprised if some anti gun nut made the call. They might have made the call from another state even. Would not surprise me one bit.

    top gun




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    True.

    Tomorrow morningI'll be grabbing a cuppa at the Moxie Javaon Fairview and Linder around 9:30.



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    im sure it was someone there or one of the girls who didnt look happy with us being there... imo..

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    ecocks wrote:
    True.

    Tomorrow morningI'll be grabbing a cuppa at the Moxie Javaon Fairview and Linder around 9:30.
    In the future would you please provide the address as to make it easier when I make the call.

    I got a little confused about the last place, seeing how I am from another state andhave never been to Idaho,but I'm glad they were able to find you.
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    Packer fan wrote:
    ecocks wrote:
    True.

    Tomorrow morningI'll be grabbing a cuppa at the Moxie Javaon Fairview and Linder around 9:30.
    In the future would you please provide the address as to make it easier when I make the call.

    I got a little confused about the last place, seeing how I am from another state andhave never been to Idaho,but I'm glad they were able to find you.
    "They" should be able to figure it out.

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    Well, we see it differently then.



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    Navy, i would have to say, i see your point, but since it was a mwg call, some one probably said that little extra that made them think they needed to check us. That being said, our goal, as with everyone here is to make this normal again so that police do just come up, say hi, and leave in peace.

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    I understand all points. My uncle is a leo in caldwell. He says they lok for anything that could be enough cause to run name and dl. Isp is far more relaxed. I ran into 3 isp at maverik on 5 mile and we started chatting. One asked the caliber. I replied 9 mil. I don't see the point in bigger cal idealy I'll never have to shoot anyone so why pay more for ammo. He concurred. And the conversation went like this for a while. Talked about my upcoming deployment. And we all went our seperate ways. Pretty chill, and an oc confidence builder.

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    Kudos to you for a gentle nudge on the public to grow used to weapons in the hands of citizens.

    You draw more flies with honey than vinegar.

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    NavyLT,

    In Nampa the cops will respond to and make contact with any MWAG call. Nampa and Canyon County have a bad Hispanic gang problem with shootings nearly every week and a rash of CA transplants. For Idaho, that is bad. Most of our larger agencies have a departmental requirement to make contact on MWAG calls. Unless you are dealing with Garden City PD or Boise PD, both full of CA transplants who don't have a clue, virtually all OC "events" go down just like the OP described. Our cops are still shooters and gun nuts and enjoy talking guns and laws with the locals. They aren't out to write an FI card on everyone they meet.

    IMO it was well handled by both parties and those cops will tell their buddies about it and how much of a non-issue it was, thus spreading goodness throughout the land. In Idaho, if you are polite to the cops, it is reciprocated. it is not uncommon to see our local LEOs at the ranges and around town off duty, so it helps if you treat them respectfully because you will see them again.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    ecocks wrote:
    Kudos to you for a gentle nudge on the public to grow used to weapons in the hands of citizens.

    You draw more flies with honey than vinegar.
    I would rather the flies just left me the heck alone.
    So would we all. It will not happen overnight. Given the circumstances, the outcome was favorable. MANY such contacts are likely to be evident until "the flies just leave us alone."

    The OP could have been argumentative, caused a scene, and "stood on principle." This could have made gun owners look like nuts.

    They made gun owners look like citizens who were minding their own business. They did this in a public place directly to LE, who then left them alone. They very likely did this in DIRECT VIEW of the persons who called in the "MWAG," but also very likely were not scared enough to run away screaming.

    A GOOD outcome. Sure, a "no contact to report" is optimum, but we aren't there....yet.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    NavyLT wrote:
    ecocks wrote:
    We chatted about people calling in that there were men with guns at the location and that they were probably just unaware that Idaho law allows this. He called us in, got back all-clears and life moved on. He seemed calm and at ease, just solid police officers doing their jobs.
    I must respectfully disagree on this point. I would not consider them to be solid police officers doing their jobs. If they were solid police officers doing their jobs, they would have showed up, observed two people doing nothing illegal and left them alone. It doesn't matter if you are carrying a cell phone on your belt or a handgun. If they had come up to you and said that someone's cell phone looked suspicious and they asked to check your ID card and you out for a record, would that be OK?

    I personally don't care how you chose to handle the situation, that's your business, but they were difinitely not, imho, just doing their jobs.
    I agree. Once they saw two men engaged in peaceful and lawful commerce they should have just left it at "how you doing?" Checking it out and establishing no RAS should have ended the encounter, period. The OP handled the situation well, but the cops exceeded their authority. "Calling it in" has no legal basis and is an infringement on your right to privacy. "Ihre papiers, bitte."
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    So, for now at least, we chalk up one [more]non-event call which took place publicly without negative impact. What's the real net (IMO)?

    * Our time loss was maybe 10 minutes, thefirst officer probably used up about 30+ minutes of his shiftgetting there, talking to the manager and filling out his report in the car later. The second officer was diverted and offline maybe half that time. Loss to the local PD then at least 45 minutes of officer time. The officers understand this is legal, at what point will they begin pushing back that these calls need better screening by 911 or citizens?

    * The management and several customers witnessed MWG's result in a minor ripple in the coffeehouse pond. Next time maybe the counter personnel will make it clear to anyone who questions them that this is nothing significant and happens all the time. also it reinforces that calling the police didn't upset us or change the situation any.

    * The dispatcher has still another MWAG call under their belt which had no apparent impact on public safety other than removing 2 officers from patrol duties for 45 minutes impacting theiravailability to handle another call.

    * Two individuals approached us and chatted, with one expressing dismay that when his wife dropped him off before going over to Target that he left his gun in the car. He moved here from Cali and didn't know OC was legal. Maybe we'll see him at our next shoot or dinner get-together.

    * If one of the two employees on duty was a source of the issue she didn't get any satisfaction by ruining our day. Those guys with guns didn't get "taken care of" by the SWAT team as they were being corrected for their reckless ways and from our behavior it was not even an inconvenience to us but a chance to thank the men who were protecting the area today.

    Everyone has a different strategy for getting where they are going. Some want to hop on the Interstate, floor the gas pedaland get there as fast as they can, risking tickets and agitating other drivers, maybe even their passengers and anyone else around as they do so. They demand the left side of the road because it is their right (skipping for a moment that it isn't) and curse and swear at all the pitiful folk who won't get out of their way and waste their time in the right lanes. Their goal is to get there fast and they aren't interested in the whole "slow and steady wins the race"approach.

    Others want to take the scenic route, a bit more sedately, stopping to check the scenery, meet follks along the way, take a few picturesand build the experiences into a lasting memory of the trip so they can look back on it later in life as a full experience. Along their path will be some good times and experiences during the journey. The memories and buildup makes the arrival and destination more enjoyable.

    Both are right and should do it (legally and safelyof course) in the way that fits their personalitybest. We're still experimenting with which ways are realistic and most effective at reaching our destination. While a multi-million dollar lawsuit in Phoenix may get the point across to the Phoenix PD that they need to consider that citizen homeowners carry firearms, it's a bit rough on the guy who had to get shot 6 times to make the point. The kinder, gentler method may take longer, but seems to build a better foundation of normalcy and rational actions than a blaze of gunfire and judicial determination of where the mistake occurred.


    As for me, I'm comfortable with my approach/response. I don't have the time to check in and out of jail, am working on finishing an injury lawsuit before contemplating a civil rights case and generally, was taught that escalating arguments among people carrying firearms is not always a wise thing to do. On top of that, my main purpose of the day was to just have a cup of coffee with a pal while making a point that normal people are carrying firearms among the population.

    My mission was accomplished.

    To each their own.


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    I think it's important to remember that we all are striving for that end result of being completely unnoticed and left alone in public. We're going to disagree somewhat on how to get there, and some of us are going to have a different comfort level when it comes to pushing the line of what's acceptable. There are even visitors to this board who are avid second amendment supports but won't go as far as trying to OC because they fear the interaction with police. Each to our own. I applaud you for exercising your right to carry and the respectful way you both present yourselves.

    I for one choose NOT to show I.D. or answer questions while OCing. I do this for multiple reasons, but mainly because I'm tired of being questioned and having my activities interuppted. For those who think this is being uncooporative, I'd like to suggest that I AM cooporating to the full extent of the law. No law in our land demands that I put up with it and I consider being approached in such a manner as rude as if you came up and demanded my I.D. In fact, I think I'm quite polite to the officers; if one of you were to ask for my I.D. I would give you a few choice words and would be back to my business. With officers, I at least refuse politely: "No sir." How can we ever expect to be treated differently until we start acting like we want something different?

    Each to our own guys. I could think of worse situations and outcomes.

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    As I see the outcome of this encounter, we now have two officers who have had it reinforced for them that people will allow them to violate their rights as long as they are polite about it. The laws and the courts hold that they cannot ask you for ID unless they have reasonable articulable suspicion that you are involved in criminal activity. The courts have repeatedly held that mere possession of a firearm does not constitute reasonable suspicion.

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    I have to side with NavyLT on this issue. I, just like John, would have NOT provided ID. I also would NOT have provided my CC Permit, my License number, my name, or my address, my favorite color, or my dog's name.

    Frankly, I would not tell them anything that I would not tell a complete and total stranger on the street.

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    Reading this I understand how important it is to be careful who you associate with. Having a good experience in any endeavor is most often a factor of picking your acquaintances carefully with regard to their disposition, intelligence and connection with reality.

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    I have been ocing steady for just over a week. And since the have educated many people as to the law. people on both sides pro and anti. Just yesterday I was asked twice if I was a leo. I simply stated no I was just (not to sound malicious) taking advantage of my right to oc. One man said he thought he needed a cwp to oc. I told him if he wants to oc he's free to. Gave him this forum address and told him to check the laws and oc away if he's legally able. I believe both sides have a valid point.

    It is our responsibility to educate the public and the less informed leo. Make a weapon commonplace in public and show the people that we carry for everyones protection. I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but if it becomes necessary I will. However, the message i, believe, we should send the public and police is; we are on your side. Eventually it will catch on. Nd we will be able to carry without instilling fear in the public.

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    I generally do not have a problem with the OP's course of actions, with the exception of handing over the driver's license. My understanding of the law is that action was not required in the situation described above. A person has to be detained under a RAS before they are required to hand over ID, right?

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    To calm this a bit... I want to say, everyone is right. What counts is how it went down, and the education recieved. Now if we run into these 2 officers again, or are at that coffee house again, we will probably not have as many issues. The point is to renormalize handguns in America. It took years for this to wane, now it will take time to get it back to being normal. Now legally, sure the police have to have reason to believe we are committing or about to commit a crime, however depending on the call, and how the call came in, and how ignorant the caller was, the police could have reason to be suspicious, that being said the situation could have went worse, starting with the leo's coming in drawn. I am just glad it did go well, could have been better, and as always is a learning experience for all, hence the reason for posting this. I do have to say, that my personal preference is not to show ID if i am not drivivng in these situations, it allows me to maintain some control in the situation.

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    petrophase wrote:
    I generally do not have a problem with the OP's course of actions, with the exception of handing over the driver's license. My understanding of the law is that action was not required in the situation described above. A person has to be detained under a RAS before they are required to hand over ID, right?
    Required? Usually.

    However, anyone who wants to hand their identification over to a police officer, when asked for it in a reasonable situation or even just because they decide that it is the appropriate thing to do is able to do so. Could I have been a ******* and refused? Told the police officer I declined to do so because he had no RAS? Indignantly informed him and his partner that under the laws of the United States and Idaho I didn't have to while making sure everyone in the place knew what was going on in case they missed it?!? Yeah, I could have. That would have lived right up to Mr. Trudeau's portrayal of OC'ers too. My how some would love that. Why, I might even have gotten my name in the papers with a story about how foolish the police department was and how a few citizens aren't going to be pushed around by the fascist pigs in uniform. Maybe we could have been interviewed on the TV and rallied the forces of the Pro-2A crowd to march and take our rights back.

    Or I could just smile and say "Hello, yes sir, I do have a CWP...." Which is how I was raised to respond to a reasonable request by an officer doing his job and being politely respectful to me as he did so.

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    ecocks wrote:
    Could I have been a ******* and refused?...

    Or I could just smile and say "Hello, yes sir, I do have a CWP...." Which is how I was raised to respond to a reasonable request by an officer doing his job and being politely respectful to me as he did so.
    I take some offense to this. Are you implying that by refusing I.D. I would be acting like a "*******"? Again, why would asserting the right to remain silent (and NOT provide evidence against oneself) be acting like a *******???

    I don't care how you handle your own encounters, only that you remain respectful in order to show the positive side of OCers. The idea that this was a "reasonable request" by an officer is laughable and so are your comments regarding anyone exercising their rights. Get some perspective. Last time I checked, the Fourth and Fifth Amendments are just as important as the Second.

  25. #25
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    hey sonny; everything ok here? you there, you got a permit for that cell phone? the other guy; keep those fingers off that computer keyboard, where i can see them. you got a permit for that computer? you old enough to drink coffee?

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