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My First MWAG Call

petrophase

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Rapid City, South Dakota, USA
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I generally do not have a problem with the OP's course of actions, with the exception of handing over the driver's license. My understanding of the law is that action was not required in the situation described above. A person has to be detained under a RAS before they are required to hand over ID, right?
 

John Wolver

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To calm this a bit... I want to say, everyone is right. What counts is how it went down, and the education recieved. Now if we run into these 2 officers again, or are at that coffee house again, we will probably not have as many issues. The point is to renormalize handguns in America. It took years for this to wane, now it will take time to get it back to being normal. Now legally, sure the police have to have reason to believe we are committing or about to commit a crime, however depending on the call, and how the call came in, and how ignorant the caller was, the police could have reason to be suspicious, that being said the situation could have went worse, starting with the leo's coming in drawn. I am just glad it did go well, could have been better, and as always is a learning experience for all, hence the reason for posting this. I do have to say, that my personal preference is not to show ID if i am not drivivng in these situations, it allows me to maintain some control in the situation.
 

ecocks

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petrophase wrote:
I generally do not have a problem with the OP's course of actions, with the exception of handing over the driver's license. My understanding of the law is that action was not required in the situation described above. A person has to be detained under a RAS before they are required to hand over ID, right?

Required? Usually.

However, anyone who wants to hand their identification over to a police officer, when asked for it in a reasonable situation or even just because they decide that it is the appropriate thing to do is able to do so. Could I have been a jackass and refused? Told the police officer I declined to do so because he had no RAS? Indignantly informed him and his partner that under the laws of the United States and Idaho I didn't have to while making sure everyone in the place knew what was going on in case they missed it?!? Yeah, I could have. That would have lived right up to Mr. Trudeau's portrayal of OC'ers too. My how some would love that. Why, I might even have gotten my name in the papers with a story about how foolish the police department was and how a few citizens aren't going to be pushed around by the fascist pigs in uniform. Maybe we could have been interviewed on the TV and rallied the forces of the Pro-2A crowd to march and take our rights back.

Or I could just smile and say "Hello, yes sir, I do have a CWP...." Which is how I was raised to respond to a reasonable request by an officer doing his job and being politely respectful to me as he did so.
 

IndianaBoy79

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ecocks wrote:
Could I have been a jackass and refused?...

Or I could just smile and say "Hello, yes sir, I do have a CWP...." Which is how I was raised to respond to a reasonable request by an officer doing his job and being politely respectful to me as he did so.
I take some offense to this. Are you implying that by refusing I.D. I would be acting like a "jackass"? Again, why would asserting the right to remain silent (and NOT provide evidence against oneself) be acting like a jackass???

I don't care how you handle your own encounters, only that you remain respectful in order to show the positive side of OCers. The idea that this was a "reasonable request" by an officer is laughable and so are your comments regarding anyone exercising their rights. Get some perspective. Last time I checked, the Fourth and Fifth Amendments are just as important as the Second.
 
M

McX

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hey sonny; everything ok here? you there, you got a permit for that cell phone? the other guy; keep those fingers off that computer keyboard, where i can see them. you got a permit for that computer? you old enough to drink coffee? :lol:
 

wrightme

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NavyLT wrote:
ecocks wrote:
Could I have been a jackass and refused? Told the police officer I declined to do so because he had no RAS? Indignantly informed him and his partner that under the laws of the United States and Idaho I didn't have to while making sure everyone in the place knew what was going on in case they missed it?!? Yeah, I could have..
And that's the problem I have too. Why is it that to you that people who stand up for their rights are jackasses? You know what - I have spent 26 years in service to the United States defending the Constitution and working to ensure you have the right to come on here and call me a jackass. So you go right ahead, buddy, and call me a jackass.

Um, now you ARE acting like one.

But, just remember, if it wasn't for people who have what it takes to stand up and call a spade a spade and call a wrong action a wrong action and say enough is enough - then you WOULDN'T have the right to call those same people jackasses, because if it wasn't for us jackasses who stand up for freedom and rights then you would simply be in the position of going to jail or even getting executing for expressing your opinion. Or if you are black, you would still be riding in the back of the bus, except for "jackasses" like Rosa Parks.
He has his opinion about how to do something, and you and others are challenging his choice, and frankly, not doing it constructively.

He chose to be non-confrontational. You might choose to do it differently than he did. HE is the one who has to live with any follow-on with local LE, and any legal battles that ensue from his choices, not you.

Right or wrong, if he had acted differently, he might be battling the system now. He chose to act as he did, and the outcome was positive. Was it the way it should be? Not really. Was it positive? To the person in the encounter, YES.

The rest is armchair QB action, and is the choice of others, not of the OP.
 

wrightme

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NavyLT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
NavyLT wrote:
ecocks wrote:
Could I have been a jackass and refused? Told the police officer I declined to do so because he had no RAS? Indignantly informed him and his partner that under the laws of the United States and Idaho I didn't have to while making sure everyone in the place knew what was going on in case they missed it?!? Yeah, I could have..
And that's the problem I have too. Why is it that to you that people who stand up for their rights are jackasses? You know what - I have spent 26 years in service to the United States defending the Constitution and working to ensure you have the right to come on here and call me a jackass. So you go right ahead, buddy, and call me a jackass.

Um, now you ARE acting like one.

But, just remember, if it wasn't for people who have what it takes to stand up and call a spade a spade and call a wrong action a wrong action and say enough is enough - then you WOULDN'T have the right to call those same people jackasses, because if it wasn't for us jackasses who stand up for freedom and rights then you would simply be in the position of going to jail or even getting executing for expressing your opinion. Or if you are black, you would still be riding in the back of the bus, except for "jackasses" like Rosa Parks.
He has his opinion about how to do something, and you and others are challenging his choice, and frankly, not doing it constructively.

He chose to be non-confrontational. You might choose to do it differently than he did. HE is the one who has to live with any follow-on with local LE, and any legal battles that ensue from his choices, not you.

Right or wrong, if he had acted differently, he might be battling the system now. He chose to act as he did, and the outcome was positive. Was it the way it should be? Not really. Was it positive? To the person in the encounter, YES.

The rest is armchair QB action, and is the choice of others, not of the OP.
Interesting, I still to fail to see any personal attacks that have been posted against the OP... and I still fail to see any posts on here that said the OP handled anything incorrectly. We are simply saying that the police officers acted inappropriately and it seems like there are several people out there who have problems with those who call out those inappropriate actions taken by police.
I never claimed that there were personal attacks.

And I do agree that no one specifically called out the OP for how he handled it. I am baffled how you construe that he called you a jackass though. Seems to be a big chip on your shoulder to get that from his comments.
 

John Wolver

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As I said before, lets all calm down. Name calling is not necessary. We did what we did, to foster good will. We are educating. Officers do not get good education, or in some cases no education on how to deal with open carriers. We have to teach them, and with anything, you go slow and easy and build up. So we had a good run in, taught the officers we had nothing to hide, were friendly and just doing what we were doing. That being said, if we run into these officers again, they know how to deal with us, and will have told others, and they will know how to deal with us as well, and if they ask for the ID's we can take it another way and still be respectful/ polite and handle it the way we want.
 

Anthony_I_Am

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SMITHFIELD, North Carolina, USA
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I can see Navylt's perspective and I agree with him, however I just don't have the time or tolerance to end up like others who refuse to show their papers and end up detained, searched, talked @#$% to, and harassed. I don't want to end up like kwikrnu or kimberguy, whom the cops are anxious to "screw with" everytime they see them out.

For me, it is simpler just to show the ID and be on my way.

OK. Now you can start posting all the "lick the hands that feed you" samuel adams quotes.
 

IndianaBoy79

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It's funny to me some of you want to make this a battle right and wrong. I don't think one person took issue with how John or Ecock handled the situation. Several comments were made regarding the officers' actions. Several of us made the statement that WE would respond differently. I've met you both in person and you carry yourselves well in public; i have no issue with you. I only take issue with the view that somehow doing it YOUR way is the polite way, and showing any amount of resistance must be "acting like a jackass". It seems that view is prevalent amongst more than a few of you.
 

John Wolver

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I didnt say my way was the polite way end all be all. I said we did it politely with our level of comfort. Now that said, if you politely refuse because there is no RAS, then you are still being polite and enforcing your views, beliefs and educating police. Jason, I know for a fact you are polite in public to LEO's. I also know you are sure of yourself and do not hesistate to stand up for what you believe and your rights. What we are all talking about is how to handle situations. And instead of attacking each other, lets focus more on learning from each other, and most importantly education of general public and police.
 

Eric.

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I have open carried a bit as I am now comfortable with my knowledge of the law pertaining to it (I even carry all of Idaho codes in my car with me). I'm glad to help us win back this right. I like the idea of helping us win back another right in not having to show ID, but I'm not well versed in the law pertaining to this. I was wondering if someone has a good and thorough compilation of links to the laws of not showing ID so I can educated myself about this with less effort than I have put into know the gun laws. Until then, I'll probably show ID and at most ask the officer if showing ID is a law.
 

Eric.

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BTW I see it as standing up for one right good, standing up for two better. Every little bit helps. I'm still only occasionally standing up for the one and OCing.
 

ecocks

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
It's funny to me some of you want to make this a battle right and wrong. I don't think one person took issue with how John or Ecock handled the situation. Several comments were made regarding the officers' actions. Several of us made the statement that WE would respond differently. I've met you both in person and you carry yourselves well in public; i have no issue with you. I only take issue with the view that somehow doing it YOUR way is the polite way, and showing any amount of resistance must be "acting like a jackass". It seems that view is prevalent amongst more than a few of you.

In my opinion, it is a personal decision based upon the circumstances rather than an absolute one IB.

Yes, we have carried together before without incident. Equally, it is clear to me that you approach it with a slightly different POV than I do.

I have no problems carrying around you although it is apparent that some approach these events with a predisposition towards creating an incident rather than resolving it. Thoseindividuals who persist in looking for a confrontation where they can prove themselves, arethe ones I wish to avoid. There is a big difference between visitingplaces which are questionable with an approach ofworking on clarification and education versus going into a place with the deliberate intention to create a scene and seek hostile confrontation.Living up to the antics attributed to gun-owners by ignorant persons such as Mr. Trudeau is not serving the best interests of the gun-carrying community (again, my opinion, you do what you feel is appropriate).

Had a SWAT team burst through the door with drawn weapons, manhandling us to the floor,proning us out and demanding ID, would I have reacted differently? Undoubtedly.

Had the manager or a customer approached us and challenged us with threats or hysterics, things would have played differently also.

In those scenarios would refusing ID and pushing back on an unlawful search and seizure be appropriate? Yes, or at least much more probably. Although largely symbolic if you've been ambushed and proned, youracceptance/agreement/lack of resistancecould well come into question in the resulting court case IF these scenarios had played out.

But, this wasn't any of thosesituations so it didn't meet my criteria to react confrontationally, which would have been acting like a jackass. I have yet to meet one of these jack-booted, fascist police officers which are so popularly featuredin many of the stories around here. Rest assured though that IF I ever do meet one of these legendary brutes, I will document it here for all the world to read about. For whatever reason though, I keep meeting normal guys and gals who smile, are polite, never draw or attempt to touch me as they do their jobs.

Wonder why that would be?
 

adam m

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I don't believe that showing ID is wrong, neither is refusing. It's a right to not have to show ID as is oc. Just because it's a right doesn't mean he has to take advantage of that right. Would any of you show the same hostility to someone that chooses not to oc even though he could do so legaly, but makes a personal choice not to?

Were the police wrong? Possibly, however, both parties handled the situation the way they felt comfortable. I would not hold it against any of you if you handled it differently. Jackasses or not! The end result was favorable, as it has been said many times ... people and leos were educated.

Keep up the fight.
 

ecocks

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Eric. wrote:
BTW I see it as standing up for one right good, standing up for two better. Every little bit helps. I'm still only occasionally standing up for the one and OCing.
Wise, Eric. You're more than welcome anytimewe get together for coffee, pie, meals or whatever.

If some of the Idaho crowd want to start this in a more organized fashion (which we have mentioned several times but had little response on) by all means let us know.

I've met with Jon C.,David and my son at various locationsas well as our organizing group of Roger, Jon C., John D, (when he was here), Elizabeth, Mike and, more recently, Andy, several times over the last few months. In all those meetings,this is the only time we've experienced a MWAG call and police response. Usually the queries are much more positive and low-key. I do recall a couple of dirty looks from customers but no trespasses from employees/managersor negative issues otherwise.
 

John Wolver

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The only thing I have to add is that, as legal responsible gun owners, trying to educate the public, we create a more positive image if it appears we cooperate, whatever level of cooperation that it takes or you deem necessary. But as long as your in public, under the public eye, imo it looks good to not make a scene, but cooperate as well.
 

IndianaBoy79

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ecocks wrote:
In my opinion, it is a personal decision based upon the circumstances rather than an absolute one IB."

Indeed, if we start talking about all of the "what ifs" I myself would react different. I don't like the idea of having a gun pointed at me; I try not to elevate any situation to that point.

Yes, we have carried together before without incident. Equally, it is clear to me that you approach it with a slightly different POV than I do.

Agreed again, though we are probably closer in views than I am with some I've met here. No offense guys, but we have some "unique" personalities here. :celebrate

Living up to the antics attributed to gun-owners by ignorant persons such as Mr. Trudeau is not serving the best interests of the gun-carrying community (again, my opinion, you do what you feel is appropriate).

No argument (I'm noticing a theme here). So long as we agree that there is a difference between "antics" and well thought out actions. We can of course disagree on where that line is drawn.

But, this wasn't any of thosesituations so it didn't meet my criteria to react confrontationally, which would have been acting like a jackass. I have yet to meet one of these jack-booted, fascist police officers which are so popularly featuredin many of the stories around here. Rest assured though that IF I ever do meet one of these legendary brutes, I will document it here for all the world to read about. For whatever reason though, I keep meeting normal guys and gals who smile, are polite, never draw or attempt to touch me as they do their jobs.

Wonder why that would be?
It's hard to classify ANY reaction as confrontational when one is just minding ones business. Maybe "assertive" is the word you were looking for?

As for your choice to volunteer your information, I agree with you that its a choice. I don't think your rights were violated in the slightest and it would be silly for anyone to make such a big deal of a situation with such a good outcome. I think we were mainly showing our disgust with how they handle MWAG calls. You keep trying to defend your actions to us; just know that in my mind you need no defense. I simply hope that police confrontations (NOW is a good time to use that word) will eventually cease due in part to both of our efforts.
 

None2Slow

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Being new here, I read this with interest. I am interested in learning more about OC'ing asI have been here about 5 years and have yet to do so. I recently found out about being able to here. If you guys are willing, I would be interested in meeting up with some of you and getting some insight and some pointers.
 

ecocks

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No problem, Jon and I were at Shari's in Nampa earlier this evening.

We'll probably grab coffee on Thursday morning or Friday afternoon somewhere in Meridian or Nampa.

Always room for another chair at our table.
 
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