imported post
Let's see if we can sort this out.
You were minding your own business when an ODU cop came over and asked to chat with you. You chatted with him. He asked you for ID.
Problem point #1 & #2-
A) You believed you needed to stay there and respond to the cop's request to ID yourself.This seems to be, up to this point, a "consensual encounter"- the cop wants to talk to you and asks who you are. He has no "official" reason to stop/detain/arrest/seize you and is counting on you cooperating out of fear/ignorance/bad judgement. Walk away. If you feel like it, say something to the effect that you do not wish to talk with him.
(He will bluster and tell you you need to answer him, that you need to present ID, that you better do as he says. Ask him if you are being detained. If the answer is "No" then walk away. Go back to talking with your friends may not be the best thing to do, as opposed to walking across the street or otherwise away from him.)
B) You believed that you needed to present some paperwork in order to ID yourself. All you needed to do was state your name and city/county of residence. Sorry you were not aware of that before your encounter.
In your willingness to provide paperwork, you did the "up against the wall" posture to allow the ODU cop to put hands on you and remove your personal property from your clothing.
Problem points #2 & #3 - by assuming a submissive posture you indicated to the cop that you A) had been through the arrest drill before, and/or B) you were willing to go through the arrest drill and/or C) you were willing to allow him to violate not only your person and your dignity but your rights as he saw fit. If you must (required by law, not the cop's whimsical desire) produce paperwork, tell the cop you will be reaching for it - do not let them take it as that will constitute a search that you consented to. That means he can then continue to search other parts of your clothing as well. Why let him, even if you "have nothing to hide"?
"Tool cop" tells you to sit on the curb. You asked if you were being detained but when told "No" you hung around without sitting down so "Tool cop" uses his "command voice" to order you to sit on the curb.
Problem points #4 & #5 - A) you were told you were not being detained but chose to remain there. (Does this begin to sound repetitious?) Instead, walk away or -- B) "Tool cop) uses his "command voice" and actually detains/seizes you.
You get into a "discussion" with "Tool cop" about his legal authority to detain/seize you and his possible violation of your rights.
Problem point #6 - "Never argue the law on the street - that's what courts are for." Sort of like "Never try to teach a pig so sing - you will get dirty and annoy the pig." Well, you both got dirty and annoyed the cop.
Now that you are de facto detained/seized the cops have the authority to take your ID and copy it down so that they can enter it into their field notes, then transfer it into their database of known/suspected troublemakers, and use it against you in the future as "evidence" of being an uncooperative and suspicious/dangerous (gun-toting) person, worthy of keeping an eye on.
The ODU cops finish with you, and you went back to your friends and hung around to see what would happen next.
Could be problem point #7 - cops have a tendency to view that behavior as taunting - daring them to do something else. They wanted to roust you and convince you that it would not be healthy for you to be in "their" neighborhood. Sometimes a strategic retreat is the better part of both valor and safety.
I'm not pointing all this out to chew you out or beat up on you about how you did or did not "blow" this encounter. There's just no absolute single way to respond when dealing with cops. I just figured you might want to look at some specific acts that might have contributed to the escalation of your encounter.
About the only thing we more-experienced folks can say is that if you ask if you are being detained and are told "No", the best thing is to walk away right then and there. (BTW, experience isthe stuffyou get right after something happens when you needed to know that stuff before or asthe eventwas happening. Some of us get experience first-hand and some of us get it vicariously watching stuff happen to others.)
Now - what can you do (besides learn from the encounter)? My own opinion is that you have almost no leg to stand on in filing a complaint because you engaged voluntarily in a "consensual encounter". The "Tool cop" who told you to sit on the curb based on his perception of need for "officer security" has a pretty good case on his side - he was dealing with an argumentative armed citizen who may (don't know as I didn't see the encounter & you don't mention it) have been exhibiting some pre-attack indicators -- waving of hands/arms, increased rate of breath with breathing being shallow, increasing volume of voice, eyes focusing (looking at) elsewhere than on his face, etc. (All of this is from his point of view, of course. How you saw/described things would be different.)
Bottom line seems to be you had a learning experience. Hope you can profit from it in the future.
stay safe.
skidmark
Let's see if we can sort this out.
You were minding your own business when an ODU cop came over and asked to chat with you. You chatted with him. He asked you for ID.
Problem point #1 & #2-
A) You believed you needed to stay there and respond to the cop's request to ID yourself.This seems to be, up to this point, a "consensual encounter"- the cop wants to talk to you and asks who you are. He has no "official" reason to stop/detain/arrest/seize you and is counting on you cooperating out of fear/ignorance/bad judgement. Walk away. If you feel like it, say something to the effect that you do not wish to talk with him.
(He will bluster and tell you you need to answer him, that you need to present ID, that you better do as he says. Ask him if you are being detained. If the answer is "No" then walk away. Go back to talking with your friends may not be the best thing to do, as opposed to walking across the street or otherwise away from him.)
B) You believed that you needed to present some paperwork in order to ID yourself. All you needed to do was state your name and city/county of residence. Sorry you were not aware of that before your encounter.
In your willingness to provide paperwork, you did the "up against the wall" posture to allow the ODU cop to put hands on you and remove your personal property from your clothing.
Problem points #2 & #3 - by assuming a submissive posture you indicated to the cop that you A) had been through the arrest drill before, and/or B) you were willing to go through the arrest drill and/or C) you were willing to allow him to violate not only your person and your dignity but your rights as he saw fit. If you must (required by law, not the cop's whimsical desire) produce paperwork, tell the cop you will be reaching for it - do not let them take it as that will constitute a search that you consented to. That means he can then continue to search other parts of your clothing as well. Why let him, even if you "have nothing to hide"?
"Tool cop" tells you to sit on the curb. You asked if you were being detained but when told "No" you hung around without sitting down so "Tool cop" uses his "command voice" to order you to sit on the curb.
Problem points #4 & #5 - A) you were told you were not being detained but chose to remain there. (Does this begin to sound repetitious?) Instead, walk away or -- B) "Tool cop) uses his "command voice" and actually detains/seizes you.
You get into a "discussion" with "Tool cop" about his legal authority to detain/seize you and his possible violation of your rights.
Problem point #6 - "Never argue the law on the street - that's what courts are for." Sort of like "Never try to teach a pig so sing - you will get dirty and annoy the pig." Well, you both got dirty and annoyed the cop.
Now that you are de facto detained/seized the cops have the authority to take your ID and copy it down so that they can enter it into their field notes, then transfer it into their database of known/suspected troublemakers, and use it against you in the future as "evidence" of being an uncooperative and suspicious/dangerous (gun-toting) person, worthy of keeping an eye on.
The ODU cops finish with you, and you went back to your friends and hung around to see what would happen next.
Could be problem point #7 - cops have a tendency to view that behavior as taunting - daring them to do something else. They wanted to roust you and convince you that it would not be healthy for you to be in "their" neighborhood. Sometimes a strategic retreat is the better part of both valor and safety.
I'm not pointing all this out to chew you out or beat up on you about how you did or did not "blow" this encounter. There's just no absolute single way to respond when dealing with cops. I just figured you might want to look at some specific acts that might have contributed to the escalation of your encounter.
About the only thing we more-experienced folks can say is that if you ask if you are being detained and are told "No", the best thing is to walk away right then and there. (BTW, experience isthe stuffyou get right after something happens when you needed to know that stuff before or asthe eventwas happening. Some of us get experience first-hand and some of us get it vicariously watching stuff happen to others.)
Now - what can you do (besides learn from the encounter)? My own opinion is that you have almost no leg to stand on in filing a complaint because you engaged voluntarily in a "consensual encounter". The "Tool cop" who told you to sit on the curb based on his perception of need for "officer security" has a pretty good case on his side - he was dealing with an argumentative armed citizen who may (don't know as I didn't see the encounter & you don't mention it) have been exhibiting some pre-attack indicators -- waving of hands/arms, increased rate of breath with breathing being shallow, increasing volume of voice, eyes focusing (looking at) elsewhere than on his face, etc. (All of this is from his point of view, of course. How you saw/described things would be different.)
Bottom line seems to be you had a learning experience. Hope you can profit from it in the future.
stay safe.
skidmark
