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Thread: Question about cops asking for ID

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    A while ago, I asked about cops requesting ID while you are walking down the street. It was in this thread: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/27931.html

    I learned a lot from that discussion, but a new question has come up. It is lawful for cops to lie to people. What about this scenario...

    Acop approaches you and asks for ID. You ask if you are being detained. He says "yes, we suspect that you were involved in a crime" or he tells you that you "match a description" but will give you no other information.

    He is lying, but there is no way to know. Also, there is no way for you to know that it is an unlawful detainment. At that point, you can either comply or you will be arrested for obstructing an investigation. One option is to call his bluff. If there is a real investigation, he will get the info he seeks by arresting you. BUT, if it was a real investigation and you don't comply, then you are in some serious crap for obstruction, even if you had no involvement in the crime. Otherwise, you must bow down and comply to having your rights taken. Thoughts on this?

    The reason I asked about this is because it is a simple lie that a cop can tell you to get you to give up your rights.
    IBTL

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    Same deal if they make up "probable cause" to search your vehicle or home without a warrant.

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    It is unethical of them to do that but they do. Ultimately it comes down to do you want to be arrested or not. I personally would comply. The way I see it is that there will probably be less people to support some one who chose to OC and question a polic officer and more people supporting an officer of the law because he/she has a responsibility to be honest.

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    My thought on this is that some of you are simply too paranoid.

    Is this forum going to become like many other gunboards, where posters continually posit "What if a cop does this?"question.

    Has this happened to you? If not, why worry about it? Why is it anywaythat you think a cop might lie to you -- simply because he enjoys going around making citizens -- who've not been observed engaged in any illegal activity -- bow down to him and taking their rights away?

    Know this: cops are not going to lie to you simply "to get you to give up your rights."

    It is lawful for cops to lie to people.

    I believe you are really miscontruing the context in which itwouldbepermissible for a law enforcement official, in the course of his/her duties, to actually tell a lie. Your scenariodoesn't apply.

    Can't speak for all agencies, but I can tell you that there'straining being done on 4th, 5th and 8th Amendment rights of citizens, but you don't have to believe this since it doesn't make for good internetthreads.


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    Bo wrote:
    My thought on this is that some of you are simply too paranoid.

    Is this forum going to become like many other gunboards, where posters continually posit "What if a cop does this?"question.

    Has this happened to you? If not, why worry about it? Why is it anywaythat you think a cop might lie to you -- simply because he enjoys going around making citizens -- who've not been observed engaged in any illegal activity -- bow down to him and taking their rights away?

    Know this: cops are not going to lie to you simply "to get you to give up your rights."

    It is lawful for cops to lie to people.
    I believe you are really miscontruing the context in which itwouldbepermissible for a law enforcement official, in the course of his/her duties, to actually tell a lie. Your scenariodoesn't apply.
    I understand your criticism. However, is it really too paranoid to ask the question I posed? We have seen on this board that there are many officers who do not agree with our rights and try to take them away. Look at the man from Vancouver.

    I was unlawfully pulled over a week and a half ago. The cop just wanted to check me out. He lied about the reason he pulled me over. Then, he went on to violate my 4th amendment rights as he entered my car without my consent.

    The question I brought up here asks about a cop unlawfully stopping you while walking, rather than driving.
    IBTL

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    Bo wrote:
    Can't speak for all agencies, but I can tell you that there'straining being done on 4th, 5th and 8th Amendment rights of citizens, but you don't have to believe this since it doesn't make for good internetthreads.
    Are you suggesting that we should not know our rights, or stand up for our rights, because there is training being done? Until that training is "done", we should just bend over and submit to whatever an officer wants?

    And, of course, once that training is "done", it will be done perfectly, and completely, and no officer will ever violate those rights, right?
    IBTL

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    They can't lie and say you're under arrest or being detained when you're not. If they're going to lie on a police report and say you were never detained (don't flame me, it HAS happened), that's what an audio recorder is for.

    In general, there's nothing you can do about the stereotypical "your *insert light here* was out" stops. Even if you have video evidence proving the lights work, all the officer has to say is they looked out to him/her.

    The bottom line is, 90% of police encounters are going to be with officers who are professional and ethical, but there's not much you can do about the other 10% except record audio and take it to court later.

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    Are you suggesting that we should not know our rights, or stand up for our rights, because there is training being done?
    Sigh. No. Every citizen should know his rights; every citizen should stand up for his rights.

    But constantly posing artificial what-if questions doesn't address the very real issues. I would suggest that we all worry about scenarios that are more likely to occur (such as a comet hitting one's house, the Detroit Lions winning the Super Bowl, Obama resigning) than a cop stopping you on your mid-day stroll simply to violate your rights for his sport.
    And, of course, once that training is "done", it will be done perfectly, and completely, and no officer will ever violate those rights, right?

    Ya know, son, trust and respect go both way. You want the cops to trust open carriers to do nothing stupid with their firearms, and you want the cops toknow that the open-carry folks are law-abiding citizens simply by virtue of their carrying a gun in plain sight ... then, please,have a little trust that the cops you encounter may actually possess a modicum of common sense, respect for the Constitution, and want to do honor to the badge they wear.

    You want to believe that the concept of innocent until proven guilty still applies?

    Or not.

    'Course, guess some rogue cop could come here and post, "What if some open-carrier that I encountered was actually a convicted felon who intended to do something horrible with his firearm?" If we all want to engage in what-if questions.

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    From what I understand is asking for your identification is part of a Terry Stop which is legal. WHen an officer stops you he/she can temporarily (a reasonable time) to establish whether they have articulable reason to for the purposes of gathering information but can not hold youindefinately, they either have toarrest you or tell you that you may leave.

    If an officer asks for my ID I give it to him. If an officer starts asking me questions following a superficial frisk (which is legal) then I ask immidiately if I am under arrest and then if I can go. It is their job to investigate. "Probable" cause is such a broad term but does have its limits...the check-and-balance is that the officer better damn well show that he/she has an articulable justification for anything beyond the initial stop whether it be on foot or in your car...that is a seperate issue to accountabililty which for the most part they do not have.

    I have had officers ask if they could search my vehicle and I have let them but I have nothing to hide and if I was ina hurry to get somewhere I would say no and test their "probably cause."
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Bo wrote:
    You want to believe that the concept of innocent until proven guilty still applies?

    Or not.
    As nice as this sounds, I do not believe this concept. I had my firearms rights temporarily revoked (as well as my right to travel) when I was suspected of a traffic violation. My record is completely clean and no firearm was involved.

    Bo, if you just want to tell me that it's more likely that I'll be hit by a comet than to meet a cop who wants to push his agenda (stopping an open carrier), then I am not interested in your input. Otherwise, I'd be happy to hear your constructive thoughts.
    IBTL

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    If we were innocent until proven guilty, we wouldn't need to pay thousands of dollars in court fees (that's even with a public defender) or more on a more motivated lawyer to avoid ending up in jail even if we are innocent.

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    If a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it would it make noise? Really, how would you know?

    Come on now, cops really have a lot better things to do than this.Just because you can do something doesnt always mean you should.Some might say thereis a fine line between preparedness and paranoia, of course that depends on which side of the fence you are standing on.

    If you arestopped, then comply with the request for ID how are your rights violated?

    I belive in your scenario failure to comply would land you in the county lock up.

    Everyone of us has to live with the decisions we make.
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Whitney wrote:
    If a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it would it make noise? Really, how would you know?

    Well there's the option of setting up motion activated cameras on numerous trees in the woods. Once I review the footage, I'll tell you how loud the noise was.

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    antispam540 wrote:
    If we were innocent until proven guilty, we wouldn't need to pay thousands of dollars in court fees (that's even with a public defender) or more on a more motivated lawyer to avoid ending up in jail even if we are innocent.
    This is America, you are guilty until proven innocent...I have been on the receiving end of that "innocent until proven guilty" crap that we are dished a helping of in school.

    I have total respect for LEO's and shot them respect but if they are asking me if they can do something that is an immediate reg flag that they do not have probably cause and are looking for it.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Bo, if you just want to tell me that it's more likely that I'll be hit by a comet than to meet a cop who wants to push his agenda (stopping an open carrier), then I am not interested in your input.
    Eh, your original post stated nothing about encounters with cops attempting to push an agenda of stopping an open carrier.

    I told you that your hypothetical situation was an artificial construct, and that it was plain wrong.

    If you want to argue that there are cops that routinely stop citizens just for sport, in an attempt to willfully deprive said citizens of their rights, I'll argue that with you all day long, until the cows come home, and you'll still be wrong.

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    Bo wrote:
    Eh, your original post stated nothing about encounters with cops attempting to push an agenda of stopping an open carrier.
    On an OC forum, I didn't think I needed to mention that the person stopped could be lawfully OCing, or lawfully wearing a shirt that says "Legalize Marijuana", or lawfully eating a piece of pizza

    Adding those possibilities into the discussion, do your thoughts on the matter change at all?

    Some people (officers included) are very opinionated on the topic of OC. Even when officers are up against the constraints of the laws they are bound by, we have seen times when they push things as far as possible and even further. For that reason, I do not believe my question was an "artificial what-if question". However, if this was a truly outlandish question/topic, I still want to understand the concepts of my rights and where they protect me under certain circumstances.

    No disrespect is meant to you or LEOs.
    IBTL

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    Rather ask a what-if then a what-now.


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

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    Poosharker wrote:
    Rather ask a what-if then a what-now.
    +1

    I'm stealing that.

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    Ok well, my input is this.

    Don't carry your ID. If you don't have ID, you can't give him no ID.

    If he says you "match a description", usually in these situations, they will have you sit in the back of the patrol car or handcuffed standing outside with a light on you.

    Say nothing. Except " I don't consent, blah blah" just to cover your ass you know?

    Now for "calling the bluff", you can do this.

    Wait til another car shows up with someone else in the car looking to "match the suspect".

    If another car with a witness doesn't show up to identify you as the suspect and instead they take you straight to jail then something is wrong....

    Just my opinion.


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

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    On an OC forum, I didn't think I needed to mention that the person stopped could be lawfully OCing, or lawfully wearing a shirt that says "Legalize Marijuana", or lawfully eating a piece of pizza
    Well, yes, in my opinion, you should have, if only for the sake of clarity.

    -- I'd submit that most cops have not during the course of their career ever encountered a known, or wanted, criminal, openly carrying a holstered firearm while out for a daytime stroll. Item: you don't see many cases where bad guys are utilizing holsters at all, either for concealed carry or during the commission of a crime.

    -- I'd also submit that the views of many in the law enforcement community regarding legalisation of pot might surprise you.

    -- All cops like pizza. It's a condition of employment, and one of the 600 questions on the MMPI they make you take to determine that you're not likely to go rogue and wander the streets looking to stomp on the rights of law-abiding citizens.

    Your original question pertained to law enforcement officers lying about why they were asking you for ID. I'm simply telling you that it IS an artificial scenario, because almost always, not only is there no reason to lie, but the proscriptions against lying are there, and, believe it or not enforced. Cops that lie will be tripped up on the paperwork (and you gotta do the paperwork, even for a brief f.i.), maybe not the first time, but it'll all come out sooner than later.



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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    He says "yes, we suspect that you were involved in a crime" or he tells you that you "match a description" but will give you no other information.

    He is lying, but there is no way to know.
    Of course there's a way to know. Call LESA and ask them if there was a crime reported in that area. If there was, ask for a description of the perpetrator; it either matches you or it doesn't. If it doesn't, call the officer's sergeant and make a complaint or file a lawsuit. If this were to happen to me, I would ask the officer for the call number that he is investigating (at the end of the detention that is).

    The ‘reasonable officer’ standard could not be stretched to allow an officer to fabricate a complaint, use that fabricated complaint as reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime, and then detain you. Imagine a cop trying to explain that to a judge! Such an act would very likely not allow the application of qualified immunity, leaving the officer without that protection. If you believe that happened, it would be relatively easy to verify the call he’s supposedly investigating.

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    antispam540 wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    Rather ask a what-if then a what-now.
    +1

    I'm stealing that.
    Very well put.

    I didn't raise this topic to imply something crooked about LEOs. I asked because I am thinking outloud about something that could be used to restrict the rights of someone stopped for OC.
    IBTL

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    Outstanding post, Mainsail, and it appears I was so focused on looking at it from an officer's p.o.v. that I didn't address the proper response to the OP, which you did very well.

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    I totally agree with Bo here. Thanks Mainsail!!!
    IBTL

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    Thanks, Mainsail! Who are, or what is, LESA and do you have any contact info, by any chance?

    MD

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