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Thread: Need help

  1. #1
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    In a bit of a dispute atm, and need to get some things accomplished before I can take the time to research the forums again.....the dispute : It is unlawful to open carry if you possess a CCW permit. True or false? Also, the state codes to back up either answer would be greatly appreciated... thanks gang...

    *EDIT* Basically, the argument is: If John Doe has a CCW permit, he is not allowed to OC anywhere. If John Doe is caught while OC'ing and produces his CCW Permit, his permit can be revoked, and he'll be cited or arrested.





  2. #2
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    Singlestack wrote:
    In a bit of a dispute atm, and need to get some things accomplished before I can take the time to research the forums again.....the dispute : It is unlawful to open carry if you possess a CCW permit. True or false? Also, the state codes to back up either answer would be greatly appreciated... thanks gang...

    *EDIT* Basically, the argument is: If John Doe has a CCW permit, he is not allowed to OC anywhere. If John Doe is caught while OC'ing and produces his CCW Permit, his permit can be revoked, and he'll be cited or arrested.
    UCA 76-1-105. Common law crimes abolished.
    Common law crimes are abolished and no conduct is a crime unless made so by this code, other applicable statute or ordinance
    There is no law generally prohibiting carrying a firearm other than in specific places under specific conditions.

    The general firearms restrictions are:

    76-10-503. Restrictions on possession, purchase, transfer, and ownership of weapons by certain persons.

    76-10-504. Carrying a concealed dangerous weapon - Penalties.

    76-10-505. Carrying a loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises - Penalties.

    76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.

    76-10-507. Possession of deadly weapon with intent to assault.

    76-10-508. Discharge of firearm from a vehicle, near a highway, or in direction of any person, building, or vehicle - Penalties.

    76-10-508.1. Felony discharge of a firearm - Penalties.

    76-10-509. Possession of a dangerous weapon by minor.

    7-10-509.4. Prohibition of possession of certain weapons by minors.

    76-10-509.5. Penalties for providing certain weapons to a minor.

    76-10-509.6. Parent or guardian providing firearm to violent minor.

    76-10-509.7. Parent or Guardian knowing of minor's possession of dangerous weapon.

    76-10-509.9. Sales of firearms to juveniles.

    .
    .
    .

    and now the clincher:

    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following:
    (a) a United States marshal;
    (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
    (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
    (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or
    (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
    (i) unloaded; and
    (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.
    So, in a word, FALSE. In Utah, the only thing a Concealed Firearm Permit does is EXEMPT the holder from certain firearms laws. It does not require any particular conduct beyond what is required to obtain the permit.


  3. #3
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    Singlestack wrote:
    In a bit of a dispute atm, and need to get some things accomplished before I can take the time to research the forums again.....the dispute : It is unlawful to open carry if you possess a CCW permit. True or false? Also, the state codes to back up either answer would be greatly appreciated... thanks gang...

    *EDIT* Basically, the argument is: If John Doe has a CCW permit, he is not allowed to OC anywhere. If John Doe is caught while OC'ing and produces his CCW Permit, his permit can be revoked, and he'll be cited or arrested.



    The "edit" is absolutely FALSE.

    The is NO law that says OPEN CARRY is legal. There is law that states if there is not a law making it illegal then by default it is legal!

    Also, if law is unclear it must be read to the benefit of the citizen!

    Utah concealed carry permit law ALLOWS concealment by removing the penalty of concealed carry, IT DOES NOT REQUIRE CONCEALMENT, merely ALLOWING concealment!

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm

    53-5-704. Division duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Certification for concealed firearms instructor -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal procedure.
    (1) (a) The division or its designated agent shall issue a permit to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense to an applicant who is 21 years of age or older within 60 days after receiving an application, unless during the 60-day period the division finds proof that the applicant is not of good character.
    (b) The permit is valid throughout the state for five years, without restriction, except as otherwise provided by Section 53-5-710.
    (2) (a) An applicant satisfactorily demonstrates good character if the applicant:
    (i) has not been convicted of a felony;
    (ii) has not been convicted of a crime of violence;
    (iii) has not been convicted of an offense involving the use of alcohol;
    (iv) has not been convicted of an offense involving the unlawful use of narcotics or other controlled substances;
    (v) has not been convicted of an offense involving moral turpitude;
    (vi) has not been convicted of an offense involving domestic violence;
    (vii) has not been adjudicated by a state or federal court as mentally incompetent, unless the adjudication has been withdrawn or reversed; and
    (viii) is qualified to purchase and possess a firearm pursuant to Section 76-10-503 and federal law.
    (b) In assessing good character under Subsection (2)(a), the licensing authority shall consider mitigating circumstances.
    (3) (a) The division may deny, suspend, or revoke a concealed firearm permit if it has reasonable cause to believe that the applicant has been or is a danger to self or others as demonstrated by evidence, including:
    (i) past pattern of behavior involving unlawful violence or threats of unlawful violence;
    (ii) past participation in incidents involving unlawful violence or threats of unlawful violence; or
    (iii) conviction of an offense in violation of Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons.
    (b) The division may not deny, suspend, or revoke a concealed firearm permit solely for a single conviction for an infraction violation of Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons.
    (c) In determining whether the applicant has been or is a danger to self or others, the division may inspect:
    (i) expunged records of arrests and convictions of adults as provided in Section 77-18-15; and
    (ii) juvenile court records as provided in Section 78A-6-209.
    (d) (i) If a person granted a permit under this part has been charged with a crime of violence in any state, the division shall suspend the permit.
    (ii) Upon notice of the acquittal of the person charged, or notice of the charges having been dropped, the division shall immediately reinstate the suspended permit.
    (4) A former peace officer who departs full-time employment as a peace officer, in an honorable manner, shall be issued a concealed firearm permit within five years of that departure if the officer meets the requirements of this section.
    (5) Except as provided in Subsection (6), the licensing authority shall also require the applicant to provide:
    (a) the address of the applicant's permanent residence;
    (b) one recent dated photograph;
    (c) one set of fingerprints; and
    (d) evidence of general familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed as defined in Subsection (7).
    (6) An applicant who is a law enforcement officer under Section 53-13-103 may provide a letter of good standing from the officer's commanding officer in place of the evidence required by Subsection (5)(d).
    (7) (a) General familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed includes training in:
    (i) the safe loading, unloading, storage, and carrying of the types of firearms to be concealed; and
    (ii) current laws defining lawful use of a firearm by a private citizen, including lawful self-defense, use of force by a private citizen, including use of deadly force, transportation, and concealment.
    (b) Evidence of general familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed may be satisfied by one of the following:
    (i) completion of a course of instruction conducted by a national, state, or local firearms training organization approved by the division;
    (ii) certification of general familiarity by a person who has been certified by the division, which may include a law enforcement officer, military or civilian firearms instructor, or hunter safety instructor; or
    (iii) equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in an organized shooting competition, law enforcement, or military service.
    (c) Instruction taken by a student under Subsection (7)(b) shall be in person and not through electronic means.
    (8) (a) An applicant for certification as a Utah concealed firearms instructor shall:
    (i) be at least 21 years of age;
    (ii) be currently eligible to possess a firearm under Section 76-10-503 and federal law;
    (iii) have a current National Rifle Association certification or its equivalent as determined by the division; and
    (iv) for certificates issued beginning July 1, 2006, have taken a course of instruction and passed a certification test as described in Subsection (8)(c).
    (b) An instructor's certification is valid for three years from the date of issuance, unless revoked by the division.
    (c) (i) In order to obtain initial certification or renew a certification, an instructor shall attend an instructional course and pass a test under the direction of the division.
    (ii) (A) Beginning May 1, 2006, the division shall provide or contract to provide the course referred to in Subsection (8)(c)(i) twice every year.
    (B) The course shall include instruction on current Utah law related to firearms, including concealed carry statutes and rules, and the use of deadly force by private citizens.
    (d) (i) Each applicant for certification under this Subsection (8) shall pay a fee of $50.00 at the time of application for initial certification.
    (ii) The renewal fee for the certificate is $25.
    (iii) The fees paid under Subsections (8)(d)(i) and (ii) may be used by the division as a
    dedicated credit to cover the cost incurred in maintaining and improving the instruction program required for concealed firearm instructors under this Subsection (8).
    (9) A certified concealed firearms instructor shall provide each of the instructor's students with the required course of instruction outline approved by the division.
    (10) (a) (i) A concealed firearms instructor is required to provide a signed certificate to a person successfully completing the offered course of instruction.
    (ii) The instructor shall sign the certificate with the exact name indicated on the instructor's certification issued by the division under Subsection (8).
    (iii) (A) The certificate shall also have affixed to it the instructor's official seal, which is the exclusive property of the instructor and may not be used by any other person.
    (B) The instructor shall destroy the seal upon revocation or expiration of the instructor's certification under Subsection (8).
    (C) The division shall determine the design and content of the seal to include at least the following:
    (I) the instructor's name as it appears on the instructor's certification;
    (II) the words "Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Instructor," "state of Utah," and "my certification expires on (the instructor's certification expiration date)"; and
    (III) the instructor's business or residence address.
    (D) The seal shall be affixed to each student certificate issued by the instructor in a manner that does not obscure or render illegible any information or signatures contained in the document.
    (b) The applicant shall provide the certificate to the division in compliance with Subsection (5)(d).
    (11) The division may deny, suspend, or revoke the certification of a concealed firearms instructor if it has reason to believe the applicant has:
    (a) become ineligible to possess a firearm under Section 76-10-503 or federal law; or
    (b) knowingly and willfully provided false information to the division.
    (12) A concealed firearms instructor has the same appeal rights as set forth in Subsection (15).
    (13) In providing instruction and issuing a permit under this part, the concealed firearms instructor and the licensing authority are not vicariously liable for damages caused by the permit holder.
    (14) An individual who knowingly and willfully provides false information on an application filed under this part is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, and the application may be denied, or the permit may be suspended or revoked.
    (15) (a) In the event of a denial, suspension, or revocation of a permit, the applicant may file a petition for review with the board within 60 days from the date the denial, suspension, or revocation is received by the applicant by certified mail, return receipt requested.
    (b) The denial of a permit shall be in writing and shall include the general reasons for the action.
    (c) If an applicant appeals the denial to the review board, the applicant may have access to the evidence upon which the denial is based in accordance with Title 63G, Chapter 2, Government Records Access and Management Act.
    (d) On appeal to the board, the agency has the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence.
    [line] (e) (i) Upon a ruling by the board on the appeal of a denial, the division shall issue a final order within 30 days stating the board's decision.
    (ii) The final order shall be in the form prescribed by Subsection 63G-4-203(1)(i).
    (iii) The final order is final agency action for purposes of judicial review under Section 63G-4-402.
    (16) The commissioner may make rules in accordance with Title 63G, Chapter 3, Utah Administrative Rulemaking Act, necessary to administer this chapter.
    Amended by Chapter 3, 2008 General Session
    Amended by Chapter 382, 2008 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 53_05_070400.ZIP 6,621 Bytes

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_071000.htm

    53-5-710. Cross-references to concealed firearm permit restrictions.
    A person with a permit to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm in the following locations:
    (1) any secure area prescribed in Section 76-10-523.5 in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition posted;
    (2) in any airport secure area as provided in Section 76-10-529; or
    (3) in any house of worship or in any private residence where dangerous weapons are prohibited as provided in Section 76-10-530.
    Amended by Chapter 366, 1999 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 53_05_071000.ZIP 1,837 Bytes
    << Previous Section (53-5-708) Next Section (53-5-711) >>

    ALSO NOTE: it is NOT required to carry the permit with you to conceal.... it merely must have been issued!

    There is no UTAH law making 'printing' illegal.

    In the case of threatened "DISTURBING THE PEACE" accusations for OC'ing of a firearm the are State Court and Federal District court decisions that tell us that these charges will not be supported UNLESS there are other facts.... Simply carrying a firearm does not give LEO's authority to demand ID. As always LEO's are free to attempt a consensual encounter but that is as far as they can go!

    And here is a transcript of the UTAH AG testimony in front of the Utah Legislature regarding this issue.

    http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/sh...Transcript.pdf

    This may be more that what you thought you asked for but.....

    Hope this helps but doesn't "make your eyes bleed" as Glenn Beck would say!

    And I see that RPYNE and I were both answering you at the same time.... I assume there is no conflict between the 2 of us.... LOL

    One more link that I find to be a great resource....

    http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...?f=11&t=99




    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  4. #4
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    Thank you gang..these documents with the utah codes to support them is more than ample for what I was looking for. Due to some real life drama that I had to encounter unfortunately, I've been away from these forums for all too long. I know that Utah laws CAN change unabruptly and without mass media warning, so I wanted to make sure I had all my facts correct from the last time I knew of them before I took this debate at my work place further.

    I must admit, the last time I visited this forum, and as far as I can see now, the OC community is still a warm welcoming bunch of men and women who are willing to help inform and educate everyone with no due course of making the not so informed feel unwelcomed, and not laughed at because of their lack of knowledge. I commend each and everyone of you and applaud you all the same for your generosity and open armed welcomes to help those out and share the knowledge. I am glad to see that even though I am sure there has been, I'm sure, some disagreements here and there, that overall the community is sticking strong together.

    Again, I am indebted to y'all for your vast knowledge and willingness to share this knowledge.





  5. #5
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    As you're reading that, keep in mind that Utah laws are RESTRICTIVE. This means that whatever is not illegalized in our constitution is perfectly legal. You will not find anything specifically mentioning the open carry of firearms just as you'll find no language detailing the legality of wearing purple pants.

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