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Thread: If one was in this situation...

  1. #1
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    Snippet from news source:

    "GRAND CHUTE — Police were looking for a suspect in connection with a Sunday afternoon stabbing incident at a Grand Chute apartment. The stabbing, at 3001 Green Meadow Drive, left a 36-year-old resident with nonlife-threatening cuts to her arms"

    http://www.postcrescent.com/article/...mp;located=rss

    Thank god the woman survived the encounter with minimal injuries. But one has to wonder if one of us were OC'n or CC'n(In a state that allows it), would deadly force be justafiable in this case? Or a draw to stop the encounter if you werent directly involved,but wittnessed the encounter? Considering the fact that the guy had no problemwhipping out his blade and becoming Gene Hackman in the first place. Thoughts?
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    If someone is attacking you with a knife you would be perfectly justified in defending yourself, even with a firearm.

  3. #3
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    The story said that the victim had non-life threatening injuries. I would not translate that into "minimal" injuries. One might easily suffer permanent loss of the use of a hand or limb from severed ligaments or tendons which may not be life-threatening, but I doubt any of us would accept them as minimal.

    Well what would a reasonable person believe? Probably not that the victim was being slashed consensually. A knife attack is deadly force, so I don't think there's much question that one would be justified in responding with deadly force if nothing less than lethal worked or was available. That's fairly simple, but the actual mechanics of the situation is the tough part. To me that is the interesting question:

    How would the police likely react? Draw and order him to stop. If the attack continued, they might deploy a Taser or other less than lethal option, or shoot him. Can't say one way or another without seeing the situation first hand.


    Non-LEOs, at least in Wisconsin, wouldn't have a Taser available, so our options are more limited and we might be forced to shoot if verbal commands did not suffice. An enraged person with a knife is potentially more lethal than any strip-mall dojo educated Kung-fu/Taekwondo/Aikido black-belted ninja type, so trying to stop them with some empty hand technique would put yourself at a greater risk. I might be willing to use a chair or improvised long-stick against them, if available. But let's assume for the sake of argument that our only available weapons are our body, wits, and gun--- wits being the primary weapon.

    Quite likely it would not an be an easy shooting situation since someone cutting another would be very close to the innocent person and undoubtedly there would be a lot of movement. I'm not going to assume that even the best hollow point won't pass clean through the bad guy, in fact I'll make the opposite assumption. Shooting could very well jeopardize the innocent person and if you intentionally moved in closer to get a better shot you may be negating your firepower advantage. Up close and personal in knife versus gun, the gunman may well be at a disadvantage. Be prepared to have the attack redirected at you. All-in-all, it is not a fun spot to be in. But you have to work with what you got, and if you have a gun it's one more option than if you don't have a gun.

    Plan B:

    If you're the anti-gun mayor of a large SE Wisconsin city, you scream like a little girl at the perpetrator to STOP! Then dial 911 on your cell phone so someone will be on the way, by-and-by, to haul your badly-beaten and cowardly ass off to the hospital. Then you wait for the press to hail you as a hero because your only available option was to distract the lunatic away from their original victim and to make yourself the second victim. Oh, I'm sorry-- to be fair you also had the option of running away.

    Finally, as you slowly heal from multiple surgeries and visits to an orthodontist, steadfastly maintain your stance that civilians should not be allowed to provide for their own personal defense--- because for all the beating your attacker administered, the one thing he didn't do was to beat some sense into you. But I digress....






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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Shotgun wrote:
    Well what would a reasonable person believe? Probably not that the victim was being slashed consensually. A knife attack is deadly force, so I don't think there's much question that one would be justified in responding with deadly force if nothing less than lethal worked or was available. That's fairly simple, but the actual mechanics of the situation is the tough part. To me that is the interesting question:

    How would the police likely react? Draw and order him to stop. If the attack continued, they might deploy a Taser or other less than lethal option, or shoot him. Can't say one way or another without seeing the situation first hand.


    Shotgun - good questions -past reaction by Madison police. This one could have been tragic.

    http://badgerherald.com/news/2004/03...ls_emerge_.php


    Another one (walk armed on Willy street)

    http://badgerherald.com/news/2006/04...hooting_ki.php

    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  5. #5
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    I recall both of those incidents very well. The Red Caboose shooting occurred just a couple of blocks or so from where I worked, and the BP gas station only a few minutes after I passed by there on my way to work. The daughter of one of the 2 police involved in that second case was a co-worker of mine.

    I recall an earlier incident in Madison, I believe on East Washington Ave. some years ago where the police faced off with a knife-armed man and they shot him dead. Predictably the papers got all sorts of "why didn't they just shoot to wound" comments.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    I can tell ya what the police would find...dead guy on ground with knife in hand.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Glock34 wrote:
    I can tell ya what the police would find...dead guy on ground with knife in hand.
    Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

    That being said, it would have been a good shoot since you would have been protecting life. you do not have to wait until you or the attacked person is dead as long as you had immediate fear of death or great bodily harm. once the BG starts toward or slashes at some one BOOM. done deal



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    Regular Member Brad_Krause's Avatar
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    BerettaFS92Custom wrote:
    That being said, it would have been a good shoot since you would have been protecting life. you do not have to wait until you or the attacked person is dead as long as you had immediate fear of death or great bodily harm. once the BG starts toward or slashes at some one BOOM. done deal.
    Any chance you'd like to fill everyone in on the rest of the legal requirements? Prison time is not high on most people's list of things to try.

  9. #9
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    I'm not sure about WI law, but everything I have been taught in the service regarding a knife vs my firearm is to shoot if I feel my life or another's is in danger. Many people are very proficient with edged weapons, and you won't know who is until too late. All it takes is a flick of the wrist and the knife, box cutter, scissors, etc can be thrown into you or someone else causing harm.

    I remember escalation of force and my personal ROE (rules of engagement. As long as you feel that you or someone elses life is in jeopardy, you should be good. But, you will need to be comfortable with sorting through everything afterwards.

    (on a side note, my training didn't end when my enlistment did. I am required to participate in DAAT training twice a year. Luckily we have one of the best instructions in both WI and northern America).

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    Update on the "victim" in question, apparently it was all made up. She cut herself up and blamed it on someone else ? Idk, kind of skimmed thru it but the link is below.

    Snippet from news source:

    "GRAND CHUTE — A 36-year-old woman could be charged with obstructing an officer after what police said was a stabbing hoax."



    http://www.postcrescent.com/article/...mp;located=rss
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  11. #11
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    Brad_Krause wrote:
    BerettaFS92Custom wrote:
    That being said, it would have been a good shoot since you would have been protecting life. you do not have to wait until you or the attacked person is dead as long as you had immediate fear of death or great bodily harm. once the BG starts toward or slashes at some one BOOM. done deal.
    Any chance you'd like to fill everyone in on the rest of the legal requirements? Prison time is not high on most people's list of things to try.
    you must be a reluctant participant

    not able to retreat

    no lesser force will do

    i was in immediate fear of great bodily harm or had an immediate fear of death.

    do not let someone else call 911 YOU CALL state something like he/she attacked me and i had no choice. do not answer any questions try to preserve the evidence and have a lawyer. let the lawyer do the talking. this is a very complicated thing to go thru and education pertinant to Wisconsin Law is very important as if you say the wrong things you will be arrested. every situation for a shooting or even pulling a weapon has to be thought out in nano seconds.

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    Landose_theghost wrote:
    Update on the "victim" in question, apparently it was all made up. She cut herself up and blamed it on someone else ? Idk, kind of skimmed thru it but the link is below.

    Snippet from news source:

    "GRAND CHUTE — A 36-year-old woman could be charged with obstructing an officer after what police said was a stabbing hoax."



    http://www.postcrescent.com/article/...mp;located=rss
    that then would have been a bad situation for a person shooting in that situation that is why it is so important to be witness and do the correct response.

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