Maybe Our Board of Directors Can Help???

hunter9mm · Mar 29, 2010

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To our Board:

There have been several posts in the past week or so where "Apparent Instructors" have come here to suggest training for several types ofclasses related to OC and CC. Some have suggested thatthey (the instructors)are only in this to profit, but I for one, wouldn't have a problem learning as much asI can about the entire conditions/problems/repercussions related to firing in self defence and the legal ramifications of doing so.

So......

In your (The board members) opinion and experience, are there anyUseful, well presented, pertinentclasses we should consider taking, and by whom? (Instructors Name please)

qball54208 · Mar 29, 2010

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My suggestion is this, check into MATC. Usually an Institution that offers Criminal Justice Assoc Deg's usually offers some kind of Citizen/Civilian firearms training.
Like here in Green Bay at NWTC, they offer 3 in a series of such classes (at a fee, about 180.00 per class) used to cover instructor LEO and or A.D.A./Lawyer , ammo, range, material and so on.
Based upon completion, the learner will be an asset to the community (educationally speaking of course) where upon the "Use of Force" you will be getting it straight from the "Horses Mouth", so to speak.
It will give the learner an edge, cause let's face it, not all of us a really that familiar with a situation you may face, ending in the situation of using lethal force.
Based upon the training I have done (Military & LEO) it shed a lot of light on the continuous and on-going questions here, it would be a great benefit to all.
Possibly removing any doubt.
Just a suggestion, keep an open mind, as others have rejected it in the past.
Ant situation where you have the opportunity to educate yourself, it places you in a better outcome.
Thank you for your time!

Tree_Planter · Mar 29, 2010

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Both before and after being arrested for planting a tree (while armed), I helped a number of people understand their rights, Wisconsin law, the responsibilities of carrying lethal force, daily encounters with other people, and the aftermath of being victimized and having to use deadly force.

I have attended numerous city council meetings to defend my rights, spoken with legal councils, legislators, mayors, police chiefs, corporate leaders, and everyday people. I don't get paid for this, even when it is 10:30 PM and someone calls in a panic.

I do hold a class about once a month to educate people on how to do all of this on their own, before they do something that causes an outcome they didn't expect. We do some shooting, have a lot of fun, and cover an incredible amount of information and your questions. Some people get out of state carry permits, others carry only in Wisconsin, some do neither because they just want to be prepared.

If you want to call or e-mail with a question, find out more about open carry, get a permit, get some handgun experience, or understand all the nit-picky stuff about carrying in Wisconsin, go for it. brad.krause (at) wi.rr.com or (414) 543-5151.

Lammie · Mar 30, 2010

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I get the feeling that there are a number of members, including myself, that would welcome additional education in the safe use af firearms, the impact of the many firearm statutes, the legal, moral and financial responsibilities and the risks asociated withthose responsibilities. And how to carry visible deadly force without bringing overt attention to oneself.

Unfortunately, with the exception of Brad Krause, all offers of training that have beenposted to date have had only two motives; personal profit and an underlying promotion of concealed carry.

I feel an education class that is manner of carry neutral and entirely voluntary could be beneficial.

I think there are a number people out there that would like to carry firearms for personal protection. They refrain from it because they don't understand enough about how to use a firearm or the risks involved. As a firearm dealer for 25 years I had a number of people purchase a handgun from me and then ask if I could show them how to load and use it. Some were even naieve enough to ask where and what kind of ammo they should buy. I had no choice but to refer them to a CCW instructor and enforce another $150 - $200 expense on them, over and above the $400+ they had just paid me. Some were so thirsty for that education that they did spend that kind of money to feel comfortable with open carry. Money they weren't obligated to spend in order to exercise their Wiconsin right to open carry.

I have posted a number of times on this forum that as far as I am concerned my open carry right is not up for barter, but as mentioned above I do think a, manner of carry neutral, education class would not be out of order. In fact such a class sanctioned byWisconsinCarry Inc. could go a long way in winning over some legislative and law enforcement "fence riders". With adocument of attendance It couldpossiblysatisfy the carry reciprosity requirements of other states forfirearm carry.

I also feel a nominal fee to cover the cost of the course is acceptable as long as participation in the course is entirely voluntary.

Notice I use the word education not training or certification.

My 2c worth.

ffemt1079 · Mar 30, 2010

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Lammie wrote:

Unfortunately, with the exception of Brad Krause, all offers of training that have been posted to date have had only two motives; personal profit and an underlying promotion of concealed carry.

Notice I use the word education not training or certification.

+1

hunter9mm · Mar 30, 2010

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Lammie wrote:

I get the feeling that there are a number of members, including myself, that would welcome additional education in the safe use af firearms, the impact of the many firearm statutes, the legal, moral and financial responsibilities and the risks asociated withthose responsibilities. And how to carry visible deadly force without bringing overt attention to oneself.

Unfortunately, with the exception of Brad Krause, all offers of training that have beenposted to date have had only two motives; personal profit and an underlying promotion of concealed carry.

I feel an education class that is manner of carry neutral and entirely voluntary could be beneficial.

I think there are a number people out there that would like to carry firearms for personal protection. They refrain from it because they don't understand enough about how to use a firearm or the risks involved. As a firearm dealer for 25 years I had a number of people purchase a handgun from me and then ask if I could show them how to load and use it. Some were even naieve enough to ask where and what kind of ammo they should buy. I had no choice but to refer them to a CCW instructor and enforce another $150 - $200 expense on them, over and above the $400+ they had just paid me. Some were so thirsty for that education that they did spend that kind of money to feel comfortable with open carry. Money they weren't obligated to spend in order to exercise their Wiconsin right to open carry.

I have posted a number of times on this forum that as far as I am concerned my open carry right is not up for barter, but as mentioned above I do think a, manner of carry neutral, education class would not be out of order. In fact such a class sanctioned byWisconsinCarry Inc. could go a long way in winning over some legislative and law enforcement "fence riders". With adocument of attendance It couldpossiblysatisfy the carry reciprosity requirements of other states forfirearm carry.

I also feel a nominal fee to cover the cost of the course is acceptable as long as participation in the course is entirely voluntary.

Notice I use the word education not training or certification.

My 2c worth.

Right ON POINT Lammie...

That's EXACTLY why I started this thread!!! :what:

I for one, trust in the people that make up our Board here at WCI and feel they have the knowledge to suggest just exactly the kind of education that would benefit OCers. There have been too many postsreferring to certifications from those that might as well be salesmen, that I don't know or necessarily trust. If I'm going to spend money to educate myself, I'd like to know that it was spent well, for what I wanted!

Thanks for adding the clarity in your post :monkey:monkey:monkey:monkey

davegran · Mar 30, 2010

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If you've just bought or are thinking about buying your first pistol and you want some exposure to the fundamentals of handling and firing it, go to http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/
and download "Combat Training with Pistol and Revolver FM 23-35". It's a military training manual and it covers most things relevant to shooting a handgun, as it says in the preface:

PREFACE
This manual provides guidance on the operation and marksmanship of the pistol, M9, 9-mm; pistol, M1911A1, caliber .45; and the revolver, caliber .38. It reflects current Army standards in weapons qualifications. It is a guide for the instructor to develop training programs, plans, and lessons that meet the objectives of the United States Army Marksmanship Program for developing combat effective marksmen. The soldier develops confidence, knowledge, and skills by following the guidelines in this manual.

Most of the principles in the manual can be applied to any semiautomatic pistol or any revolver.

Practice drawing, presentation, reloading, and above all, safe handling of your weapon using snap caps (Inert cartridges) in the privacy of your home to gain [size="+1"]muscle memory[/size]. Then if you really want to hone your skills, join an IDPA chapter to learn more about live fire practical shooting.

You can also set up the IDPA Classifier match in your back yard and use snap caps to practice the movements and other skills involved. I've included an attachment with all the details.

Enjoy and learn,
Dave

Spartacus · Mar 30, 2010

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I for one am happy to hear about any training opportunities whether it is for CC or defense. Why would somebody complain about making a profit on skills and knowledge in a capitalistic society such as America is?

My girlfriend and I will be getting our Minnesota CC permit which covers Arizona where we travel extensively and allows us the opportunity to not have to unload and case the firearm before driving. Now we can just jump in the car and go.

It is also possible that when WI gets CC that there will be recipriocity between the Ut, FL, and MN permits so that only a fee will need to be paid without further training. The few trainers that we have now will be so jammed up at that time that you will be begging for instructors to post on OCDO.

Lammie · Mar 30, 2010

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Spartacus, thy name fits thee well.

BROKENSPROKET · Mar 30, 2010

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I know that Hubert was talking to Mark Thole at Midwest Marksman Inc. to set up a Defense Handgun Course for WCI members in the La Crosse area. It will be posted on the Events Page when everyting is set up. I am looking forward to it.

Mark also had MN/FL Permit classes. I signed up for the May 22 which may not be full yet. You can google midwest marksman for more info.

CUOfficer · Mar 30, 2010

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Brokensproket, I have also signed up for the May 22nd class. He was not full yet and the cost of the class was reasonable. His website is http://www.midwestmarksman.com .

qball54208 · Mar 30, 2010

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I for one am in great appreciation for the efforts Brad has put into this issue. I will be meeting up w/ him in Milw on Thus for lunch and some conversation.
I would like to take some ppl along, but this time it involves Business along the way.
I will be collecting information from Brad, anyone interested in getting him up here to do a class, climb aboard!
I applaud those who decide to educate yourself, in any capacity, however, based upon my learning experience, both class room and range time, it will open your eyes.
I have been involved in Scenario based training (Shoot v Don't Shoot, EDP, Armed Person/s w/ weapon/s) with several Agencies. Those experiences have taught me a lot. Also, using Video based training (Military & LEO) have put the class room learning into "As real as it gets" situations. Of which, most would never get the chance to do, I consider myself lucky.
So, if you want to broaden your capacity, please show your intent by committing to the offer Brad has so selflessly offered and get involved.

Lammie · Mar 30, 2010

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We all owe Brad a debt of gratitude. Were it not for him anf his sacrifices we would still be in the startting gate regarding open carry.

professor gun · Mar 30, 2010

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CUOfficer wrote:

Brokensproket, I have also signed up for the May 22nd class. He was not full yet and the cost of the class was reasonable. His website is http://www.midwestmarksman.com .

I took one of Mark's classes to renew my MN concealed carry permit. Well organized, nicely done class.

On the matter of a class to cover the legallities of open carry in WI, if there were an attorney who had an interest in the issue of open carry that would be an ideal fit I think. I am not trying to discount what Brad offers or what he has done; I would find it interesting to listen to his account of all the things that went on after his arrest.

Tree_Planter · Mar 30, 2010

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There was no Wisconsin course before my arrest, and afterward I wanted to help people learn from what happened to me so they don't have to re-invent the wheel at their own expense.

I worked with a certifying organization to develop a course that would benefit students from start to finish and be legally accurate. Everything has been reviewed by legal counsel, and I went through the certification process in order to teach the course.

A brief outline is:
- The legal aspects of carrying a firearm daily.
- Public perception and reaction to lawfully armed citizens.
- Holsters, sidearm types, and other information you need to know.
- Avoiding conflict.
- The lawful use of lethal force and its aftermath.
- Routine police encounters.
- Applying for out-of-state carry permits.
- Range qualification.

Included is a 200 page book, spiral-bound notebook, and other materials.

I also teach a basic handgun course which is excellent for beginners and women who have been victimized, a renewal course for permit holders, and hold specialized training to meet other goals.

More important than a classroom setting is helping people avoid being victims. While out to dinner a woman asked how to defend against a specific type of attack. Her eyes told the story, and we spent some time on how a woman of her proportions could better her odds by using her strengths to her advantage. We missed desert, but she has a new tool that she can use to help level the playing field.

professor gun · Mar 30, 2010

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Sounds like a good course, Brad. I wasn't aware that you offered this in depth coverage.

hunter9mm · Mar 31, 2010

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hunter9mm wrote:

To our Board:

There have been several posts in the past week or so where "Apparent Instructors" have come here to suggest training for several types ofclasses related to OC and CC. Some have suggested thatthey (the instructors)are only in this to profit, but I for one, wouldn't have a problem learning as much asI can about the entire conditions/problems/repercussions related to firing in self defence and the legal ramifications of doing so.

So......

In your (The board members) opinion and experience, are there anyUseful, well presented, pertinentclasses we should consider taking, and by whom? (Instructors Name please)

Edited to include:
My focus for being as educated as I can is the period of time starting from "Themoment my sidearm leaves the holster to the time the smoke clearsand I need to call in the coroner's office", along with the legal ramifications of "taking the shot"

hunter9mm · Mar 31, 2010

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Double Clicked, :banghead:

Tree_Planter · Mar 31, 2010

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hunter9mm wrote:

Edited to include:
My focus for being as educated as I can is the period of time starting from "Themoment my sidearm leaves the holster to the time the smoke clearsand I need to call in the coroner's office", along with the legal ramifications of "taking the shot"

The course I teach expands on that, helping people prepare today so they can potentially avoid a conflict and properly manage one if the option to withdraw is removed, preferably without having to handle a sidearm. Examples include an ordinary police encounter, a person initially intent on committing a crime, or just someone you meet that may have objections. By avoiding a conflict, the expense and aftermath is avoided.

If you are unable to withdraw from a conflict, it is a bad time to try to figure out the best way to proceed. If you have a framework of legal, moral, and practical understanding, you are better equipped to minimize your loss.

Managing your loss is important, and unfortunately, this is when some people contact me. A person's options are definitely limited at this point, which is why understanding and planning in advance helps tremendously. "I never thought..." and "I wish I would have..." combine with "How do I..." It is better to be in the middle of executing a plan than trying to create one.

You can always call or e-mail me, preferably in advance of needing to.

Brad Krause

Spartacus · Mar 31, 2010

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As a survivor of an armed conflict where I fired in self defense but was charged with but found not guilty of felony endangering safety, I wish that I had known beforehand the trouble and $10,000 in lawyers fees that was headed my way when I pulled that trigger.

Thank you Brad for helping to make us aware of the unintended consequences.

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