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Thread: Newb from Portland

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    Hi,
    I'm new to the site and live in Portland. I'm not one that regularly open carries, since people around here are so gun scared, but I've had my CCW permit for about 5 years with no issues.

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    Hey caddydaddy.

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    Welcome, Caddydaddy. Always glad to see new members.

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    welcome

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    Hopefully our BBQ has changed the fact that you don't OC :-)

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    shanebelanger wrote:
    Hopefully our BBQ has changed the fact that you don't OC :-)
    No, while I support your guy's views on it, I believe that concealing a weapon is the best way to carry. That way, you're not an immediate target when the bad guy is scoping out threats.

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    caddydaddy wrote:
    shanebelanger wrote:
    Hopefully our BBQ has changed the fact that you don't OC :-)
    No, while I support your guy's views on it, I believe that concealing a weapon is the best way to carry. That way, you're not an immediate target when the bad guy is scoping out threats.
    I disagree, but I value your opinion and I admire your honesty! Thank you!

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    caddydaddy wrote:
    shanebelanger wrote:
    Hopefully our BBQ has changed the fact that you don't OC :-)
    No, while I support your guy's views on it, I believe that concealing a weapon is the best way to carry. That way, you're not an immediate target when the bad guy is scoping out threats.
    This is one of the original Urban Legends.

    The standard issue challenge is this: Show me one (1) verifiable cite in modern times, anywhere in the USA where an honest citizen OCing (not LEO or security) has ever been preemptively taken out.

    Hasn't happened yet - likely will some day, but when it does the resultant percentage ratio will look something like .00001%

    On the other hand, there are untold thousands of times where on OCd gun has deterred a crime w/o being touched. I prefer the odds on my side (pun intended) thank you.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    This is one of the original Urban Legends.

    The standard issue challenge is this: Show me one (1) verifiable cite in modern times, anywhere in the USA where an honest citizen OCing (not LEO or security) has ever been preemptively taken out.

    Hasn't happened yet - likely will some day, but when it does the resultant percentage ratio will look something like .00001%

    On the other hand, there are untold thousands of times where on OCd gun has deterred a crime w/o being touched. I prefer the odds on my side (pun intended) thank you.

    Yata hey
    Urban legend or not, if I was a criminal, and I saw a guy with a gun, he would be a threat to my evil plan, thus a threat, so I'd take him out first!

    But, I'm smart, and most criminals aren't! :P

    Even if someone wasn't going to shoot me, the chance of a gun grab worries me. The way some of the people were OCing at the BBQ was not aimed at weapons retention!

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    Yeah, there were 75 of us haha... I don't think people were too worried about gun-grabbers! ;-)

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    caddydaddy wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    This is one of the original Urban Legends.

    The standard issue challenge is this: Show me one (1) verifiable cite in modern times, anywhere in the USA where an honest citizen OCing (not LEO or security) has ever been preemptively taken out.

    Hasn't happened yet - likely will some day, but when it does the resultant percentage ratio will look something like .00001%

    On the other hand, there are untold thousands of times where on OCd gun has deterred a crime w/o being touched. I prefer the odds on my side (pun intended) thank you.

    Yata hey
    Urban legend or not, if I was a criminal, and I saw a guy with a gun, he would be a threat to my evil plan, thus a threat, so I'd take him out first!

    But, I'm smart, and most criminals aren't! :P

    Even if someone wasn't going to shoot me, the chance of a gun grab worries me. The way some of the people were OCing at the BBQ was not aimed at weapons retention!
    Still it is incumbent upon us all to distinguish between fact and fiction. Otherwise we perpetuate the myths that are so promoted by the anti 2A crowd and even the CC only people.

    There is unquestioned benefit to retention holsters and situational awareness. Even hand-to-hand defense is a prudent ability. That said, you would sooner attempt to grab a rattlesnake's tongue than to try and snatch mine. :P

    As to non-retention holsters at a cook out, that is the time for BBQ guns and holsters. I see little direct correlation between style selected for an event of that nature and what I would expect to see outside such a large protective circle of the wagons. ymmv

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Caddydaddy has a valid point. I actually subscribe to that school for the most part. We should also be mindful that we're on the same side and while cd's comments are honest and IMHO, persuasive, that isn't an attack on OC disciples. We should also not lose credibility by making claims that can't be proven. The logicial equivalent to the "OCers arent' marks because they OC" is "I wasn't attacked this morning on the way to work because I'm a big boy and I look mean". Neither cause/effect nexus is provable so let's not get too much in the weeds about that stuff; I don't think it casts a kind shadow on an otherwise wonderful cause.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    OC is legal because there is no law against it.

    OC is safe and effective because there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

    Personally, I do not care how you carry or even if you carry, but if you do carry, do so responsibly.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Um, ok.

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    Yes, caddydaddy does make a very good point and I too agree and disagree with him. I think that there are times when it is simply more convenient to carry concealed, so I do. While there are other times when it is simply more convenient to carry openly. I think that you should carry at all times, if at all possible. Of course this is simply because you never know when you will need to protect yourself or your loved ones. Concealed carry isn't right or wrong, and neither is open carry. There are opportune times for both as well as inopportune times. We're on the same side here fellas. We just do the same thing a little bit differently. At the end of the day we're still on the same side of the street (the one w/o the bad guys ;-)* Thats one thing I think we really need to get away from. We need to get away from OC VS. CC WHO'S RIGHT, WHO'S WRONG. It's the same thing. We are both protecting ourselves and our loves ones. We should be about furthering the *personal protection movement? perhaps the constitutional carry movement?* and worry less about oc vs cc.

    Just my .02 cents, take it or leave it.

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    Exactly right and well done.

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    shanebelanger wrote:
    Yes, caddydaddy does make a very good point and I too agree and disagree with him.* I think that there are times when it is simply more convenient to carry concealed, so I do.* While there are other times when it is simply more convenient to carry openly.* I think that you should carry at all times, if at all possible.* Of course this is simply because you never know when you will need to protect yourself or your loved ones.* Concealed carry isn't right or wrong, and neither is open carry.* There are opportune times for both as well as inopportune times.* We're on the same side here fellas.* We just do the same thing a little bit differently.* At the end of the day we're still on the same side of the street (the one w/o the bad guys ;-)** Thats one thing I think we really need to get away from.* We need to get away from OC VS. CC WHO'S RIGHT, WHO'S WRONG.* It's the same thing.* We are both protecting ourselves and our loves ones.* We should be about furthering the *personal protection movement?* perhaps the constitutional carry movement?* and worry less about oc vs cc.*

    Just my .02 cents, take it or leave it.

    very right bro. i've always oc'ed cause i didn't have my CCW, but i do now and realize places like wal-mart, although fun to OC in are better to CC in just to avoid removal. The CC permit comes in alot of handy, if i'm OC'ing and need to go somewhere i cant.....i just cover it with my shirt. either way i have my weapon. either way myself and those around me are protected. either way im doing it legally , so who really cares how you carry your weapon. its the right your exorcising that matters

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    jay75009 wrote:
    shanebelanger wrote:
    Yes, caddydaddy does make a very good point and I too agree and disagree with him. I think that there are times when it is simply more convenient to carry concealed, so I do. While there are other times when it is simply more convenient to carry openly. I think that you should carry at all times, if at all possible. Of course this is simply because you never know when you will need to protect yourself or your loved ones. Concealed carry isn't right or wrong, and neither is open carry. There are opportune times for both as well as inopportune times. We're on the same side here fellas. We just do the same thing a little bit differently. At the end of the day we're still on the same side of the street (the one w/o the bad guys ;-)* Thats one thing I think we really need to get away from. We need to get away from OC VS. CC WHO'S RIGHT, WHO'S WRONG. It's the same thing. We are both protecting ourselves and our loves ones. We should be about furthering the *personal protection movement? perhaps the constitutional carry movement?* and worry less about oc vs cc.

    Just my .02 cents, take it or leave it.
    very right bro. i've always oc'ed cause i didn't have my CCW, but i do now and realize places like wal-mart, although fun to OC in are better to CC in just to avoid removal. The CC permit comes in alot of handy, if i'm OC'ing and need to go somewhere i cant.....i just cover it with my shirt. either way i have my weapon. either way myself and those around me are protected. either way im doing it legally , so who really cares how you carry your weapon. its the right your exorcising that matters
    Agree generally, up to a point and not quarreling. I've been known to switch to CC myself for various reason.

    The point being that there is no public awareness when CCing - not that everyone is comfortable OCing and not saying such is mandatory. Just saying that if it is not seen, it is unknown and the acknowledgment of the RKBA is lessened.

    This public relations war in which we are involved so deeply would take several giant steps backwards were it not for OC. What measure of success would your recent picnic have had without the media exposure and if all attending had been CCing?

    Remember the old adage that children should be seen, but not heard? The anti-freedom crowd treats you like children who should neither been seen or heard. They want you and your handgun to disappear - don't oblige them.

    We must exercise that right in order that we retain/advance it.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    i agree with you on that grape.

    i enjoy both forms of carry. i usually OC when im by myself. i dont mind the looks, stares, questions and sometimes insults. they give me an opportunity to inform and stop fears.

    however......when im with my girlfriend i CC. shes terrified of guns *but shes form vermont i dont get that* and feels very uneasy with the stares i get when i OC.

    i've noticed since the gettogether that people dont look at me as oddly. they still stare and point. but i havnt heard a shrill scream since....were moving forward :-D

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    After running these comments through the deductive reasoning machine I conclude the following: we're on the same team; sometimes CCing is much more effective and practical than OCing; that those of us with young families, professions, etc., don't always have the luxury of being a 24/7 walking political advertisement and for those reasons may not want to strap one on the hip when we go to the beach with the kids. You feel me?

    Moving on.

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    Dude,we've heard that same "taken out first argument" soooooo many times for so long.

    And time after time after time after time, no one can regale us with a true tale of any OC'er being "taken out first."

    Caddy, after you've OC'ed for a while, and tasted sweet freedom, you'll feel the same as we do when a new guy says CC is better for that reason.

    Either way, welcome to the Light side of the Force!!! :-)
    A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
    But have his weapons to hand:
    He knows not when he may need a spear,
    Or what menace meet on the road.

    - Odin
    The Havamal

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    Roll Tide!

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    so i am coming into this thread over a year late but i have to throw this in to debunk the 'OC'er is first shot' crap. this is good verifiable proof that open carry and known to posses firearms can prevent crimes. to an extent.

    Armed and Considered Dangerous: A survey of felons and their firearms by Peter H. Rossi and James Wright. Fifty-six percent of the prisoners said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Seventy-four percent agreed with the statement that "One reason burglars avoid houses where people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." Thirty-nine percent of the felons had personally decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun, and eight percent said the experience had occurred "many times."

    The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985, Department of Justice. 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

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    Great debate

    Thank you all for your comments. As a new handgun owner it's nice to hear both sides

    Al- Auburn Maine

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    First Reply.. and Hello to all OCers.

    I both OC and CC and have to agree with Shooter McGee's last post and also wanted to add that I feel that criminals are cowards and would most likely run when they see a gun.

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