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Thread: CATO Institute Article on Virginia Carry Options (CC and OC)

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    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11626

    by David Rittgers

    Virginia Beach Police Chief Jake Jacocks Jr. recently asked Gov. Bob McDonnell to veto the "concealed handguns in bars" bills that have passed both houses of the General Assembly.

    Chief Jacocks says that the carrying of handguns will endanger thepublic, that guns and alcohol don't mix, and that only law enforcement officers can handle that awesome responsibility of carrying a concealed handgun in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

    Unfortunately, Jacocks seems unaware that handguns are already allowed in alcohol-serving establishments

    As Chief Jacocks puts it, "The potential for display and/or discharge of the firearm is unquestionably high."

    Actually, the potential for display of a firearm in a restaurant that serves alcohol is a certainty under current law.

    Concealed handgun permit holders in Virginia are required to transition to "open carry" when they enter establishments that serve alcohol for on-premises consumption. They must remove their jacket or other cover garment concealing their firearm and carry it openly.

    When current law mandates the result that Jacocks fears, he should rethink his position. When the bill becomes law, Virginia will not suddenly become a more dangerous place to live and work.

    In fact, the commonwealth's laws will reflect those of the rest of the United States. Of 48 states with concealed handgun permit regimes, only nine put restrictions on carrying in establishments that serve alcohol for on-premises consumption. Only Virginia and Montana require open carry, and Arizona requires concealed carry.

    Chief Jacocks' argument would be better served if he proposed moving to the Arizona model to mandate concealment.

    Nationwide, the states have decided that there is a class of citizens who can be trusted with carrying a concealed handgun — specifically, those people who can pass a background check and whatever training requirement the state mandates. We call those people "permit holders."

    As the concealed handgun laws across the nation were relaxed in the past 20 years, we have heard desperate warnings that blood would run in the streets when permits were issued. None of these predictions came true, and concealed handgun permit holders are a more law-abiding bunch than the populace as a whole.

    In a recent open letter to Gov. McDonnell, Chief Jacocks attempted to draw a parallel between drinking and carrying a gun, and drinking and driving an automobile. The General Assembly has already addressed this concern, by making it illegal under the proposed law to consume alcohol while carrying a concealed handgun. If past rates of criminal activity by permit holders are any guide, they will follow this law far better than the rest of society.

    The same cannot necessarily be said of the police in whom Chief Jacocks places so much of his faith. Last June, Officer Bryan Womble of the Virginia Beach Police Department's Selective Enforcement Unit — the group of officers tasked with keeping drunk drivers off the road — was arrested for driving with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.15 after a car crash. (Womble is no longer employed by the Virginia Beach police.) Another of Jacocks' officers was charged in December after striking a neighbor's mailbox while driving under the influence.

    Yet Chief Jacocks tells us that "[it] is irresponsible for anyone other than a law enforcement officer to carry a firearm into a bar."

    If Chief Jacocks is so concerned about the prospect of intoxicated arguments turning into gunfights, he should have submitted language to the legislature that applies a "no drinking" rule to law enforcement officers and commonwealth's attorneys. They are currently allowed to carry a concealed handgun in a bar and to consume alcohol while doing it. The proposed legislation would not change this fact.

    The majority of the states allow concealed handguns in establishments that serve alcohol. The Commonwealth of Virginia can treat its citizens like adults and do the same.

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    Regular Member bmartinxd45's Avatar
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    True,

    If I am going into an establishment that serves alchohol and I am carrying I will leave the field strip the gun in the parking lot and put the mag in the glove box, the bottom half of the gun in the console and the barrel and slide in my pocket. That way I don't have to worry. If i have been drinking the gun stays that way till I get home and my wife reassembles it. I would rather be safe than sorry.

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    Why would you do that bmartin? Only concealed carry is forbidden in places serving alcohol; open carry is perfectly fine. If you're specifically talking about drinking and carrying I tend to agree it may be best to leave the firearm behind, but otherwise why not just carry openly?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This excellent article was also printed in the Richmond Times Dispatch. There are a few comments there.

    TFred

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    Bars? What are these bars? I thought that there were no such things as bars in the Commonwealth of Va. Interesting....

    Great article.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    He was doing OK until he got here::X

    Chief Jacocks' argument would be better served if he proposed moving to the Arizona model to mandate concealment. Nationwide, the states have decided that there is a class of citizens who can be trusted with carrying a concealed handgun — specifically, those people who can pass a background check and whatever training requirement the state mandates. We call those people "permit holders."

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    peter nap wrote:
    He was doing OK until he got here::X

    Chief Jacocks' argument would be better served if he proposed moving to the Arizona model to mandate concealment. Nationwide, the states have decided that there is a class of citizens who can be trusted with carrying a concealed handgun — specifically, those people who can pass a background check and whatever training requirement the state mandates. We call those people "permit holders."
    Clarify? Is the word class that gets you? Maybe all my studies have turned my brain to mush the past few days...
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    NightmareSHANIQUA wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    He was doing OK until he got here::X

    Chief Jacocks' argument would be better served if he proposed moving to the Arizona model to mandate concealment. Nationwide, the states have decided that there is a class of citizens who can be trusted with carrying a concealed handgun — specifically, those people who can pass a background check and whatever training requirement the state mandates. We call those people "permit holders."
    Clarify? Is the word class that gets you? Maybe all my studies have turned my brain to mush the past few days...
    Yes,. the word class is more than enough because that's what's happening. Instead of right, we need to use the word allowed. We are trying very hard to create a privileged class of gun owners.

    Notice that just within the last few days, we had a member here that only wanted to sell a gun to Permit holders. That would guarantee an upstanding person....all at the same time a permit holder was brawling in the parking lot of Walmart and I haven't heard, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the idiot that shot up the dump truck was a permit holder.

    Now some people don't care if they give up the RIGHT to freely own and carry guns without permission and some are just too narrow minded to know what's happening. That's fine. Everyone has a perfect right to make up their own minds about it and I respect that right.

    But I will fight the perks 4 permits mentality till we either have parity in Va, (Which we don't right now) or the state manages to register every gunowner in the state.




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    peter nap wrote:
    NightmareSHANIQUA wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    He was doing OK until he got here::X

    Chief Jacocks' argument would be better served if he proposed moving to the Arizona model to mandate concealment. Nationwide, the states have decided that there is a class of citizens who can be trusted with carrying a concealed handgun — specifically, those people who can pass a background check and whatever training requirement the state mandates. We call those people "permit holders."
    Clarify? Is the word class that gets you? Maybe all my studies have turned my brain to mush the past few days...
    Yes,. the word class is more than enough because that's what's happening. Instead of right, we need to use the word allowed. We are trying very hard to create a privileged class of gun owners.

    Notice that just within the last few days, we had a member here that only wanted to sell a gun to Permit holders. That would guarantee an upstanding person....all at the same time a permit holder was brawling in the parking lot of Walmart and I haven't heard, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the idiot that shot up the dump truck was a permit holder.

    Now some people don't care if they give up the RIGHT to freely own and carry guns without permission and some are just too narrow minded to know what's happening. That's fine. Everyone has a perfect right to make up their own minds about it and I respect that right.

    But I will fight the perks 4 permits mentality till we either have parity in Va, (Which we don't right now) or the state manages to register every gunowner in the state.


    You certainly hit the nail on the head and I couldnt agree more.

    My girlfriend actually asked this question the other day about permit holders versus the traditional open carrier in terms of responsibility. I was explaining that it is a loaded topic because there are some folks that believe they should not have to ask permission to carry concealed etc. But at the same point, it is a hoop we jump through to receive a perk here or there.

    I agree that the perk system that is loosely in place with the permits is garbage. I also think that defining a class of gun owners inside the permit permission is garbage as well. Mostly because of the irresponsible idiots you mentioned. The guy that shot at that dump truck probably only hit it four times because the last time he fired his firearm was for proficiency FOR his permit. Even then, it would seem he just barely passed.

    I do not want to be lumped in with those people. Just like I would not want to be branded some "dump southern redneck" because I live in the Commonwealth. There really is a fine line we walk to show ourselves as responsible, upstanding, courteous human beings capable of understanding the weight (physical, societal, and moral) of carrying a firearm. But it is hard to walk that line when people that cannot control themselves without a firearm, are given the ability to conceal one legally, and yank it out from underneath us.

    People that know me since I have begun to carry notice how I have changed my public attitude. I am in customer service, so that is something ingrained in my being, but carrying a firearm takes that to a whole other level. Nova is a great example in my eyes; always able to make eye contact, smile, or somehow interact with the eyeballing individual to proctor the image we are not all rabid, foaming at the mouth for a bad guy, raging lunatics.

    Wow... Damn fine point you made Peter. I appreciate you opening my eyes to that.
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    jmelvin wrote:
    Why would you do that bmartin? Only concealed carry is forbidden in places serving alcohol; open carry is perfectly fine. If you're specifically talking about drinking and carrying I tend to agree it may be best to leave the firearm behind, but otherwise why not just carry openly?
    That is my point, If I now I am going to drink even one beer than the gun gets stripped and I have my brew. If I know I wont be tempted to drink because of who I am with ( i.e. my mom who is totally against that or someone else who I would rather not drink with) than I will open carry in the restaurant. Honestly, sometimes depending on what I am eating I really want a beer and I dont want to be carrying and have one regardless of it is legal or not. Steak and a cold beer actually sound really good right now.

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    bmartinxd45 wrote:
    jmelvin wrote:
    Why would you do that bmartin? Only concealed carry is forbidden in places serving alcohol; open carry is perfectly fine. If you're specifically talking about drinking and carrying I tend to agree it may be best to leave the firearm behind, but otherwise why not just carry openly?
    That is my point, If I now I am going to drink even one beer than the gun gets stripped and I have my brew. If I know I wont be tempted to drink because of who I am with ( i.e. my mom who is totally against that or someone else who I would rather not drink with) than I will open carry in the restaurant. Honestly, sometimes depending on what I am eating I really want a beer and I dont want to be carrying and have one regardless of it is legal or not. Steak and a cold beer actually sound really good right now.
    Do what I do: Carry when you dont drink, or drink and dont carry.

    I understand that the drinking while open is considered a no no in our circle. And that stigma comes with good cause. But honestly there is no need to strip your firearm down, unless you dont have a CHP?

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    NightmareSHANIQUA wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    NightmareSHANIQUA wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    My girlfriend actually asked this question the other day about permit holders versus the traditional open carrier in terms of responsibility. I was explaining that it is a loaded topic because there are some folks that believe they should not have to ask permission to carry concealed etc. But at the same point, it is a hoop we jump through to receive a perk here or there.
    You can tell your girlfriend that there is very little difference between the two. Some No Permiters are people (Myself included) that had permits and allowed them to expire. Some just don't want to get one.

    It would be easier just to pay $50.00 as Philip suggests, and get a permit. That's not the point. I did insist my wife get hers because I really didn't want her to have to play mind games with the police. I even took the class with her.

    Tell her to not think about guns. Everyone that has a drivers license can drive a car. Some people would rather ride a motorcycle though. They need another permit or endorsement for that.

    Even that has exceptions for people that don't like asking permission.

    I have a motorcycle and a motorcycle license and haven't ridden it for a couple of years.
    I bought a Whizzer that I don't need a license or tags or insurance for. (Also gets 110 miles to the gallon and something broke in the carb so it can cruise at 50mph. I need to get that fixed)

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    Jacocks is retiring
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    t33j wrote:
    Jacocks is retiring
    Do you have a link to that?

    Its funny because I predicted this might happen following his public statements recently. Have to wonder if it was by "agreement" or otherwise suggested.

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Couldn't sleep, turned on the tube to news, after 2 or 3 murders were reported, they hit on this. According to LNC 5 it's because he doesn't want to deal with budget cuts.

    http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/virg...-june?cid=srch

    I've always considered Yorktown as a really safe place. With the stuff that's been reported lately I'm beginning to wonder.

    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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