Oakland University (is this us?)

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office888 wrote:

Michigander wrote:

State law allows campus carry now!

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Huh? When'd that get changed?

-Richard-

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There is no state law that bans OC at colleges. CC is outlawed, but only in class rooms and dormitories.

Preemption doesn't cover state run entities, such as colleges who derive their over bearing power from the community colleges act. That is why unconstitutional bans against self defense remain active in colleges across the state.

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JeffSayers wrote:

I was not aware of anything MOC or OC supporters had planned for next week. Did I miss something, someone please get a hold of me if I did.

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Generaldet announced it on Team Speak a while back.

Maybe he didn't see a need to inform you.

He did notify the MOC Events Coordinator though.

But he deleted the notice before anyone had a chance to sign-up.


[line]The UFO is landing on Team Speak Sunday @ 6PM.

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From: Samuel Lucido <lucido@oakland.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:49:48 -0400
To:
Subject: Campus Demonstrations - Firearms Issues


All Members of the Campus Community:

Last week, President Russi and Provost Moudgil sent an e-mail message to the campus community regarding the possibility of two separate gun rights advocacy groups planning to hold demonstrations on campus this week. I am providing the following update:

On Friday, April 2, 2010, I met with the leaders of the OU Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. The group is promoting the right of students who have valid permits to carry a concealed weapon, to do so on campus. The group attempts to bring attention to their cause through what’s commonly referred to as an “empty holster” protest in which students attend classes and go about their daily business on campus while wearing empty and openly visible holsters.

At my request, the student leaders initially agreed to cancel this week’s demonstration primarily because of the anxiety these issues have raised in the community. Unfortunately, the student leaders changed their minds over the weekend and decided to go forward with the demonstration during the period of Monday through Thursday. OUPD officers are monitoring the demonstrators, which have totaled just a handful thus far, and will continue to do so. The protesting students have been lawful and orderly.

Yesterday, I met with the new president of the Michigan Open Carry, Inc., the second gun rights advocacy group mentioned above. This group believes citizens should have the right to carry legally registered firearms in open view in public. Recently, we had been informed that the group may be planning to gather and hold a demonstration (while carrying firearms on their person and in open view) on campus this week. During our meeting, the president of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. confirmed that his organization is not promoting or sponsoring any official demonstration of this type on campus this week. However, individual group members may act independently and engage in such a demonstration although we believe the possibility of that occurring to be highly unlikely.

I am quite confident that our campus will remain a safe environment this week as we continue to monitor events closely. However, we encourage anyone who sees threatening or dangerous behavior, or who observes openly carried firearms, to call the OUPD at (248) 370-3331 or text 911@oakland.edu.

Finally, and on another note, I would like to remind you that we have been planning for over a year to conduct a full scale emergency management training exercise on campus this Friday, April 9, 2010. This event, supported by a U.S. Department of Education grant, involves a number of local first emergency responders, as well as the University’s Crisis Management Team and other student, staff and faculty participants. This type of training is invaluable in helping us enhance our overall emergency preparedness initiatives.

The exercise will take place in the general area of Wilson Blvd. and Meadow Brook Rd. and may require some partial road closures. Those of you who happen to be in the area during the exercise will see responding police, fire and emergency medical service agencies simulating an emergency response. You are reminded that this is a TRAINING EXERCISE ONLY and not a real emergency.

Thank you for your cooperation and ongoing commitment to campus safety.

Samuel C. Lucido

Chief of Police

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maybeifulucky wrote:

Yesterday, I met with the new president of the Michigan Open Carry, Inc., the second gun rights advocacy group mentioned above. This group believes citizens should have the right to carry legally registered firearms in open view in public....

I am quite confident that our campus will remain a safe environment this week as we continue to monitor events closely. However, we encourage anyone who sees threatening or dangerous behavior, or who observes openly carried firearms, to call the OUPD at (248) 370-3331 or text 911@oakland.edu.

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This could be interpreted as if the chief of police thinks open carry is illegal and plans to harrass OCers. Not sure. Anyone know?

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Savage.Detroit wrote:

maybeifulucky wrote:

Yesterday, I met with the new president of the Michigan Open Carry, Inc., the second gun rights advocacy group mentioned above. This group believes citizens should have the right to carry legally registered firearms in open view in public....

I am quite confident that our campus will remain a safe environment this week as we continue to monitor events closely. However, we encourage anyone who sees threatening or dangerous behavior, or who observes openly carried firearms, to call the OUPD at (248) 370-3331 or text 911@oakland.edu.

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This could be interpreted as if the chief of police thinks open carry is illegal and plans to harrass OCers. Not sure. Anyone know?

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It was mentioned in the email that the chief met with "the new president of the Michigan Open Carry, Inc." so maybe Jeff has some answer or speculation as to that.

I'm surethe Michigan OpenCarry, Inc.as well as many gun owners inthe Michigan would like to know.

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Savage.Detroit wrote:

This could be interpreted as if the chief of police thinks open carry is illegal and plans to harrass OCers. Not sure. Anyone know?

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I've got a nagging suspicion it might be. To this day, no one has been able to point out to me which act or law state run universities get their power from, but I do know that community colleges have sweeping unconstitutional power from the community colleges act.

Therefore, it would not surprise me if a similar law existed for universities. If such a law does exist, it may very well be legal for universities to ban guns, at least until a high court rules that the second amendment/ Article 1, Section 6 of Michigan’s Constitution preempt gun prohibitions as nearly everyone here could agree they do. But I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen.

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DanM wrote:

It was mentioned in the email that the chief met with "the new president of the Michigan Open Carry, Inc." so maybe Jeff has some answer or speculation as to that.

I'm surethe Michigan OpenCarry, Inc.as well as many gun owners inthe Michigan would like to know.

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Mr. Lucido indeed acknowledged the legality of open carry, however the specific location of his campus was not discussed. If I recall correctly, a message sent to the students at OU from one of their faculty made a statement to the effect of "we cannot legally interfere with them".

I would fully expect however, that the act of OC on this campus and most as of now, would at the minimum result in detainment and unnecessary questioning as we would have experienced in the general public two or three years ago.

I would strongly recommend anyone with business on campus, or anyone thinking of simply making a political demonstration, carefully review the "community colleges act" beforehand to determine what current law actually says in regards to OC on campus. And of course, if someone does this, your fellow patriots here and at MOC would certainly love to hear your interpretation!

And finally, I personally applaud the SCC for their decision to have their events four days rather than one. The reasons given to avoid demonstration on those four days were based solely on emotional reasons. The point of the added activity on Friday due to the emergency procedure drills is valid. It is based on logic rather than emotion and I would encourage everyone to leave the campus clear of demonstrations on that day so those people performing the drills can have their space.

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Hey Guys,

I am with the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus as a Campus Leader at Southwestern Michigan College, although nothing I say here will represent the SCCC or its opinions in any capacity.

First of all, the protest at my college is going well so far, my fellow students have been receptive and complimentary, and the staff at SMC has been, for lack of a better word, supportive of our free speech rights.

In regards to OC on campus, a few things come to mind. A key excerpt from the Community Colleges Act:

389.103 Community college as corporate entity.

Sec. 103.

(1) A community college district is a body corporate and may sue and be sued, and may take, condemn, use, hold, sell, lease, and convey real property without restriction as to location and personal property including property received by gift, devise, or bequest, as the interest of the community college district may require. A community college district is presumed to have been legally organized if it has exercised the franchises and privileges of a community college district for a period of at least 2 years; and such a community college district and its trustees are entitled to all rights, privileges, and immunities, and are subject to all duties and liabilities conferred upon community college districts by law.

(2) In addition to the powers expressly stated in this act, a community college district and its board of trustees may exercise a power implied by or incident to any of its powers expressly stated in this act and, except as otherwise provided by law, may exercise a power incidental or appropriate to the performance of any function related to operation of the community college district in the interests of educational and other programs and services offered by the community college district.

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The first subsection clearly defines a community college as a corporation, not a governmental body, and from this we can assume all the things we do about corporate entities. In the good ol' US of A, corporations are people too. They can ask you to leave, but they can't make OC illegal on their property, just like you or I can't do it on ours.

The second subsection is the important one. There is nothing in the Community Colleges Act that even vaguely suggests the college can over-ride MI law on OCing. The bold portion, "except as otherwise provided by law", actually state the opposite, that MI law trumps community college policies.

The clear-cut conclusion for me: OC on college-campuses is perfectly legal. The only thing the college can do is ask you to leave, as any property owner can do. If you are a student, however, they can impose academic sanctions, so please don't try this at your college!

Opposing interpretations welcome.

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(2) In addition to the powers expressly stated in this act

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The word "addition" implies to me that it's only one more little enabling sub section. Just because that section lists a limit, it doesn't mean the others have to. I'm no lawyer, but that's how I read it. :?

As zigziggityzoo pointed out, this part of this law is really what gives it its unconstitutional teeth.

The board of trustees may:

(a) Certify to the treasurer of the community college district for payment out of the funds thereof all claims and demands against the board or community college district, which shall be allowed by the board under rules and regulations it may establish.

(b) Borrow money or other property and accept contributions, capital grants, gifts, donations, services or other financial assistance from the United States of America or any agency or instrumentality thereof.

(c) Accept by gift or devise private property. They may accept from any county, township or other governmental unit any contribution authorized by its governing body as provided in sections 791 to 795 of Act No. 269 of the Public Acts of 1955, as amended, being sections 340.791 to 340.795 of the Compiled Laws of 1948. They shall likewise be entitled to receive from the state all grants of state aid, in the same manner and proportion, as any other community college.

(d) Adopt bylaws, rules and regulations for its own government and for the control and government of the community college district.

(e) Acquire and hold in the name of the district all real property and improvements acquired and erected under the provisions of this act.

(f) To do all other things in its judgment necessary for the proper establishment, maintenance, management and carrying on of the community college.

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I definitely think you're right, as far as not having the weight of law. Which is why I concealed carry in colleges when not in classrooms or dormitories.

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Michigander wrote:

(2) In addition to the powers expressly stated in this act

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The word "addition" implies to me that it's only one more little enabling sub section. Just because that section lists a limit, it doesn't mean the others have to. I'm no lawyer, but that's how I read it. :?

As zigziggityzoo pointed out, this part of this law is really what gives it its unconstitutional teeth.

The board of trustees may:

(a) Certify to the treasurer of the community college district for payment out of the funds thereof all claims and demands against the board or community college district, which shall be allowed by the board under rules and regulations it may establish.

(b) Borrow money or other property and accept contributions, capital grants, gifts, donations, services or other financial assistance from the United States of America or any agency or instrumentality thereof.

(c) Accept by gift or devise private property. They may accept from any county, township or other governmental unit any contribution authorized by its governing body as provided in sections 791 to 795 of Act No. 269 of the Public Acts of 1955, as amended, being sections 340.791 to 340.795 of the Compiled Laws of 1948. They shall likewise be entitled to receive from the state all grants of state aid, in the same manner and proportion, as any other community college.

(d) Adopt bylaws, rules and regulations for its own government and for the control and government of the community college district.

(e) Acquire and hold in the name of the district all real property and improvements acquired and erected under the provisions of this act.

(f) To do all other things in its judgment necessary for the proper establishment, maintenance, management and carrying on of the community college.

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In plain language, subsection 2 of my above quote states the following: A community college district has all of the powers specifically listed in this act, as well as those implied by this act, or those necessary to carry out this act but not directly stated here. Also, unless MI law says otherwise, they have the powers that are necessary and appropriate in running a community college. To that end, there is nothing in the Act that implies or makes necessary or makes appropriate a ban on guns.

In response to your other quote beginning "The board of trustees may:..." A "community college district" is defined as a corporate body, and the bold sections then, are referring to the operation of such a business. the use of the word "government" in that clause is like government with a lowercase 'G', meaning a form of the verb "to govern". Not government with a capital 'G', as we might refer to our governing bodies.

Again, my interpretation, but I am absolutely confident in them, and common practice on my college has been in keeping.

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I'm back again.

I've been incredibly busy with the media firestorm that has resulted from OU's Empty Holster Protest. The story was just picked up by the AP.

I've been in contact with Jeff and everything on that front has been sorted out as he said earlier.

I was featured on the Mitch Albom show on Wednesday, and Channel 4 news on Tuesday. Myself and the OU SCCC chapter have been featured on Channel 7 news. Countless, (literally, at least 15 I think) newspaper articles have been featured.

I thank Open Carry Inc for their support of all 2A groups, and specifically Jeff Sayers. Jeff and I are working to establish a 2A coalition of all 2A groups. I think this will allow us to work together even more effectively.

Now comes the kicker! Nationally, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is a student led group. We have an extraordinarily small annual budget. But we need more help! Michigan is one of the top states in the country - right behind Texas - in activity during the EH Protest. We're close to achieving our goal. We can handle the press, the opposition by police chiefs and student congresses. Unfortunately, our website - as some on this thread have commented - needs some updating. We need financial help to do that. Please visit our website at http://concealedcampus.org/, and consider making a donation (on the right side of the page). All donations go directly to helping us achieve our goals through web redesign, press releases, etc. Again, we are a volunteer organization and officers such as myself receive absolutely no reimbursement. We don't need much, and literally every little bit helps. Our membership is 1/100th the size of the NRA. $20 means almost nothing to them, but one such donation can help us make dramatic steps towards advancing 2A goals.

Again, thanks for your support - both through 2A causes, and hopefully, in financial support.