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Thread: Brady bunch mentality and "facts"

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    So, feel free to link to other threads and such. We all know the Brady's and other anti's assume that gun=murder. What I want to do is understand where they get their statistics, and how everything is warped in a way to show that guns are evil. Here's one example of what I mean...

    If you go to bradycampaign.org and click on the "facts" link, it says...

    "In 2006 guns murdered:
    18 in Austria
    27 in Australia
    59 in England & Whales
    60 in Spain
    190 in Canada
    194 in Germany
    10,177 in the United States"

    First of all, where do they get these "statistics"? Second, what are these "statistics" leaving out? Third, what other "statistics" and "facts" do they have to support their argument? I'm not one that enjoys being ill-prepared (hence, I carry a gun) in any situation. Even a discussion with an anti gun person. Please load me up with more info than needed. Thanks in advance!

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    First of all, if that is a quote, then the Bradies have cited everyone of those statistics wrong. In every one of those countries guns murdered zero people.

    Also, why did they pick 2006? Shouldn't they present an array of years? They may have picked the one year that seems to support their POV.

    One last thing, shouldn't they be citing murders per 100,000. Larger populations will have more murders.

    One last, last thing. Shouldn't they be looking at all violent crime? If the number of guns is drastically reduced, gun crime may go down. But, knife crime surely goes up.

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    An option that is unmentioned yet is that they just make them up, or at least part of them. Who would ever question a number that came out of thin air, other than a crazy murderous gun nut?

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    The words "facts" and "Brady-campaign" generally should not be used in the same sentence.

    If they used strictly the facts, their position would fall apart. They use portions of information that will benifit there position, with out concern to the rest of the information provided. Half truthes etc....


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Good April 1st post.:PThe Brady bunch is a joke.

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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Good April 1st post.:PĀ*The Brady bunch is a joke.
    I love it when a post makes me actually laugh out loud! Maybe I should have posted "The Brady bunch are extremely logical, truth seeking people who deal in nothing but factual evidence". Then I could have popped in with "April fools!" tomorrow. But I didn't want to destroy what little credibility I have achieved so far.

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    Mr.FiredUp wrote:
    So, feel free to link to other threads and such. We all know the Brady's and other anti's assume that gun=murder. What I want to do is understand where they get their statistics, and how everything is warped in a way to show that guns are evil. Here's one example of what I mean...

    If you go to bradycampaign.org and click on the "facts" link, it says...

    "In 2006 guns murdered:
    18 in Austria
    27 in Australia
    59 in England & Whales
    60 in Spain
    190 in Canada
    194 in Germany
    10,177 in the United States"

    First of all, where do they get these "statistics"? Second, what are these "statistics" leaving out? Third, what other "statistics" and "facts" do they have to support their argument? I'm not one that enjoys being ill-prepared (hence, I carry a gun) in any situation. Even a discussion with an anti gun person. Please load me up with more info than needed. Thanks in advance!
    The most obvious (to me) and easiest argument is that "murder" has a specific meaning under law, generally the willful killing of another human being with intent. This differs from manslaughter, reckless homicide and the like which allude to differing states of mind and/or intent. So the first question is if ALL of those were really legally murder or were they only homicides. You kill the man trying to cleave your wife's skull with an ax that is homicide but not murder. I seriously question their terminology.

    British criminal homicide stats are pretty useless. Even their Home Secretary said so a few years back. Unlike the US, Britain and reportedly other nations, do not include homicides in their criminal stats until an arrest and conviction whereas the US includes any and every actual and probably homicide in theirs. Two gang bangers get in a fight during a drug deal, one pulls a gun and the other, in self-defense, kills him. Use of firearm during the commission of a crime (the drug deal) and even though a self-defense use of a firearm it is technically a murder and is so entered in the US stats. Not so in many other nations.

    In other words, because of vast differences in the method and criteria of data collection on violent crimes across nations, one must be VERY careful when using it comparatively.

    Also, many of the US "murders" can be dismissed outright as having no bearing on law abiding gun ownership as the majority of murders are committed by criminals with an illegal firearm killing another criminal.

    That might be a start ..
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    You won't find one shred of honesty printed on the Brady Campaign web site.

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    They also don't consider population size. Not sure how many live in britian but if those countries had as many people as we do the rates would probably be the same or close.
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    We all speak of liberty and freedom like we are the only ones that know the truth and the right path. But if we expect everyone to accept and follow our path and to accept our truth and want to force it upon them then that is no longer liberty or freedom. It is slavery. I believe in liberty for all. Regardless of their political views, religion, race, sex, etc.

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    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms
    Here is a place the Brady people might have gotten their facts.

    Also, here is some interesting info.

    Population of Austria: 8,344,319 Brady gun murder #: 18

    Population of Australia: 21,374,000Brady gun murder #: 27

    Population of Wales: 2,900,000 Brady gun murder #: 59

    Population of Canada: 33,311,389 Brady gun murder #: 190

    Population of Spain: 45,568,152 Brady gun murder #: 60

    Population of Germany: 82,140,043 Brady gun murder #: 194

    Population of USA: 307,006,550 Brady gun murder #: 10,177



    I don't know where they got all their stats but we have the largest population out of ALL their examples. Of coarse we will have a higher number!



    Here is another little something:

    Population of China: 1,325,639,982

    That is a large number of people. The only gun they caqn have is a .177

    Know what that is? That's called a bb gun! WOW!



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    The only relevant part of the stat is the part that reads, "guns murdered."

    1. No gun ever murdered anyone.

    2. In countries without guns, murder rates involving guns may be lower. However, you need to look at murder rates in general. I am sure that "baseball bats murder" more people in the US than in England.

    Compare apples to apples. The best stats compare murder rates involving guns between localities in the US that have and don't have gun control.

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    I find it a bit funny in a morbid way that the brady people only care about gun murders. I guess they support all other forms of murder.
    Kentucky Open Carry Group
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    We all speak of liberty and freedom like we are the only ones that know the truth and the right path. But if we expect everyone to accept and follow our path and to accept our truth and want to force it upon them then that is no longer liberty or freedom. It is slavery. I believe in liberty for all. Regardless of their political views, religion, race, sex, etc.

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    KYKevin wrote:
    I find it a bit funny in a morbid way that the brady people only care about gun murders. I guess they support all other forms of murder.
    BINGO!!!

    The truth of the matter is that the anti-gun groups don't really care about crime by guns. They just use the crime argument as a means to persuade the public that guns are bad. The primary goal of the anti-gun organizations is to dis-arm the public. These groups are part of the much larger scheme to turn this country into a totalitarian regime.

    The good news is that their message is falling on more and more deaf ears. The statistical evidence is in, and it doesn't support their propaganda. Most of the people in this country aren't as stupid as the anti-gunners would like for us all to believe.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    BINGO!!!

    The truth of the matter is that the anti-gun groups don't really care about crime by guns. They just use the crime argument as a means to persuade the public that guns are bad. The primary goal of the anti-gun organizations is to dis-arm the public. These groups are part of the much larger scheme to turn this country into a totalitarian regime.

    The good news is that their message is falling on more and more deaf ears. The statistical evidence is in, and it doesn't support their propaganda. Most of the people in this country aren't as stupid as the anti-gunners would like for us all to believe.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where can I find this evidence? I have bumped into a few people that show "evidence" that gun violence in America is the highest anywhere else in the world.

    Are the any stats on Open Carry, such as any violent events?

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    If every other country besides the US banned hammers, then the US would have the highest hammer murder rate.

    The key is not to compare gun murder rates. Compare murder rates in general or, better yet, violent crime rates.

    Here's a link that shows that there is no correlation between gun control and violent crime.

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    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

    This list murders overall. Notice the difference when you compare the numbers of murders by firearms against the total number of murders.

    Austria Murders by guns 18 All murders 65
    Australia 27302
    Wales 59 Not listed
    Canada 190 532
    Spain 60 494
    Germany194 914
    USA 10,177 16,204

    Look at the disparity of chances that you could be murdered by other means in eadch country listed.

    In the USA you have about a 60% chance of being murdered by method other than a firearm, while the percentage is anywhere between 300% and 800% greater of being murdered by other means in the other countries listed.

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    Hollowpoint38 wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    BINGO!!!

    The truth of the matter is that the anti-gun groups don't really care about crime by guns. They just use the crime argument as a means to persuade the public that guns are bad. The primary goal of the anti-gun organizations is to dis-arm the public. These groups are part of the much larger scheme to turn this country into a totalitarian regime.

    The good news is that their message is falling on more and more deaf ears. The statistical evidence is in, and it doesn't support their propaganda. Most of the people in this country aren't as stupid as the anti-gunners would like for us all to believe.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where can I find this evidence? I have bumped into a few people that show "evidence" that gun violence in America is the highest anywhere else in the world.

    Are the any stats on Open Carry, such as any violent events?
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

    According to this chart, South Africa tops the list followed by Colombia and Thailand, in both total numbers of murders by gun and per capita .

    The USA ranks #4 in total murders by firearms and #8 in per capita rates.

    Take note of the nations that have higher per capita rates than the USA. They're all so much smaller than the US in population and geographical size. We also have to look at what's going on in these countries.

    What is the political environment of these nations? Are they under dictatorship or representative government?

    What is the education/literacy level in these countries?

    What is the socio-economic environment?

    What is the cultural environment in each country?

    What is the judicial and law enforcement efficiency/corruption ineach of these countries?

    All of this factors in as to why these smaller countries have higher crime rates than the USA. You can't just blame it on firearm accessability, which is what the Brady Campaign tries to do.



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    Hollowpoint38 wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    BINGO!!!

    The truth of the matter is that the anti-gun groups don't really care about crime by guns. They just use the crime argument as a means to persuade the public that guns are bad. The primary goal of the anti-gun organizations is to dis-arm the public. These groups are part of the much larger scheme to turn this country into a totalitarian regime.

    The good news is that their message is falling on more and more deaf ears. The statistical evidence is in, and it doesn't support their propaganda. Most of the people in this country aren't as stupid as the anti-gunners would like for us all to believe.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where can I find this evidence? I have bumped into a few people that show "evidence" that gun violence in America is the highest anywhere else in the world.

    Are the any stats on Open Carry, such as any violent events?
    There is no evidence since guns, like all inanimite objects,dont commit acts of violence. Only people do.
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    Huck wrote:
    Hollowpoint38 wrote:

    Where can I find this evidence? I have bumped into a few people that show "evidence" that gun violence in America is the highest anywhere else in the world.

    Are the any stats on Open Carry, such as any violent events?
    There is no evidence since guns, like all inanimite objects,dont commit acts of violence. Only people do.
    I didn't ask that. I know guns don't kill people. Don't patronize me please. I'm an adult. Not a child in need of teaching.... unlike the Brady Campaign.

    I was asking if there was any stats on OPEN CARRY VIOLENCE. There seems to be a statistic for everything and I wanted to know if any OCers have ever shot up a store, robbed someone, etc.

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    Hollowpoint38 wrote:
    Huck wrote:
    Hollowpoint38 wrote:

    Where can I find this evidence? I have bumped into a few people that show "evidence" that gun violence in America is the highest anywhere else in the world.

    Are the any stats on Open Carry, such as any violent events?
    There is no evidence since guns, like all inanimite objects,dont commit acts of violence. Only people do.
    I didn't ask that. I know guns don't kill people. Don't patronize me please. I'm an adult. Not a child in need of teaching.... unlike the Brady Campaign.

    I was asking if there was any stats on OPEN CARRY VIOLENCE. There seems to be a statistic for everything and I wanted to know if any OCers have ever shot up a store, robbed someone, etc.
    To answer your question (highlighted in bold), not that we're aware of. The members of these forums are constantly on the lookout for incidences of such nature. We're also attempting to keep tract of events in which lawful OC'ers have used there weapons in self-defense or defense of another.

    As far as stats go, concerning lawful OC'er or CCers crossing the line and carrying out illegal violantacts, it appears that it's been CCer's doing that. And that has been extremely rare in relation to the total number of lawful carriers.

    It also appears that CCer's are more likely to have to use their weapons to stop a crime than OC'ers. We only know of a few documented cases in which an OCer has been involved in a defensive shooting. Dang near all incidences of lawfull carriers using their firearms defensively have been by CCer's, as best we can tell.

    It's really hard to tabulate statistics on events (such as how many crimes are deterred by OC) when no one but the criminal knows of the occurences. Maybe if we ask nicely, the criminals will start furnishing us with this important data.

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    Regular Member Hollowpoint38's Avatar
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    LOL ok. Thank you. That is what I was looking for. I knew we couldn't have statistics on possibly prevented crimes. I just wanted to know if an OCer had broken the law with their weapon or how many times it had happened so I could compare it to the CC stats (the few I've seen).

    Thanks! You've been helpful! -Tim

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    Yeah, I don't think you'll find any stats, just a few anecdotes.

    OCers just don't seem to be out there shootin' the place up. Except maybe Jimmy Kimmel.

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