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Thread: A knife attack are you prepaired to defend yourself?

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    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    I don't know if this has been brought up before, but its an eye opener!!!



    A knife attacker can kill you from 21 feet away before you even draw your firearm. Every second counts. Know the details of the Tueller Drill prior to being in this situation so you can prove in court that you believed in that moment that your life was in grave danger. :what:



    Tueller Drill. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
    Good Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIZw5bx8-Eo



    Don

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    Regular Member Brad_Krause's Avatar
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    The commonly taught distance has been increased to 30'.

    Brad Krause
    Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed
    Last edited by Brad_Krause; 08-21-2010 at 04:50 PM.

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    I have read accounts from people who were in a violent altercation, were stabbed, and didn't realize it untilafter the fight was over. Both commented that they did not realize their attacker had a knife. One reason why distance is your friend in a confrontation.

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    The commonly taught distance has been increased to 30', as 21' will get you killed, at 30' you might live.
    Since Dennis Tueller is still alive and published his work at 21 feet and 1.5 seconds in 1983, maybe the name should be changed to the Wisconsin AAFCI Anile Advice.

    The speed/distance of a successfully defended attack was a distribution, as many real world data is, and 1.5 seconds resulted from a statistical evaluation. See the CQB wannabe fan magazine, S.W.A.T. magazine (March 1983)

    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

    So, if 21 feet is too close for some and 30 feet is too close for others, maybe forty feet should be the limit - of what?

    I used to work with published empirically derived limits, a two dimensional phase space of temperature and pressure. To exceed the limits carried a significant risk of a casualty. The publisher of the operating envelope knew that and built fudge factors in to the diagram. Then the Navy fudged some more for safety, and my bosses fudged some more to be responsible. When I got on the deck plates then the engineer sailor and I had to instruct our shift and write down the limits that we should use to stay out of trouble. Then the audit agency would come along and criticize whatever was written as either too limiting - threatening an incident report - or too un-limiting - threatening an incident report.

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    McX
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    my policy is; brandish a knife, a potentially lethal weapon within the 'safety zone' around me, and i'll do some brandishing of my own. from there it will be their choice as to what occurs next. i would caution them to choose wisely at that point.

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    McX
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    if the criminal at that point stops to consider my words, i would tend to add; you might get to stick me once, but I will shoot you twice(double tap). continue your contemplations, and advise me as to your decision.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    McX wrote:
    if the criminal at that point stops to consider my words, i would tend to add; you might get to stick me once, but I will shoot you twice(double tap). continue your contemplations, and advise me as to your decision.
    ""You might stick me once, but I bet your life you can't stick me twice"

    ???

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    McX
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    the sproket that is broken once again speaketh the truth.

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    Brad_Krause wrote:
    The commonly taught distance has been increased to 30', as 21' will get you killed, at 30' you might live.

    Brad Krause
    Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed
    So if a person is charging at you from any distance, shouldn't your first reaction be to move in a rearward direction while audibly voicing your intent to defend yourself?

    I guess my point is, that 21 ft distance only gets smaller if you let it.

    I would be backing away, telling the aggressor to stop, I have a gun and I will shoot.
    Should he choose to continue closing the 21 ft gap, then it will be to his demise.

    In the event that you can not create distance between you and the aggressor, you should state your intentions immediately while drawing your firearm in self defense of course.

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    McX
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    mr. gleason, i ain't all that smart, but, at the same time, been around awhile, and know; if i get bloodied, my actions are justified. i would ofcourse retreat, and the right hand would be on the gun, but you so much as even scratch me, and it's a whole new ball game. the criminal has intent, and so shall i at that point.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Bad guy brandishes a knife in a threatening manner in my presence regardless of if it's 15 or 30 feet away from me , If I happen to be OCing at the time & have no ability to flee the area & get to safety...bad guy will fall down & stop breathing...when pd arrives I will be sitting 15 feet way , gun will be unloaded and placed on the ground......
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    McX
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    spoken like a law abiding citizen!


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    Glock34 wrote:
    when pd arrives I will be sitting 15 feet way , gun will be unloaded and placed on the ground......
    Not mine. Mine would be reloaded and holstered. Criminals have feigned injury or death as a ruse.

    Oh, if you shoot someone for merely "brandishing" a knife at 15 - 21 feet you better hope you have a good lawyer and no witnesses.




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    Shotgun wrote:

    Oh, if you shoot someone for merely "brandishing" a knife at 15 - 21 feet you better hope you have a good lawyer and no witnesses.
    What part of someone brandishing/threatening you with a knife would you not consider intent of causingbodily harm or death. If someone unsheathes a knife near me while making remarks of them injuring or killing me, "Smile and wait for flash"

    Are you suggesting a person should wait until they are injured first, or attacked by a knife wielding person before drawing and firing?

    I see a knife being held in a threatening manner, I counter with a firearm, then we'll wait and see what the person with the knife decides to do next. Unless they are absolutely bat-shiit crazy, I believe they may rethink their offense and comply with commands to drop their weapon.

    Which brings up another question, lets say someone threatens you with a knife, you draw down on them to counter their offense, they then back down, you are not forced to shoot them, so you call the coppers to have them handle it from there.
    I would expect almost any cop to be arresting me just because I took the initiative to counter the assailants offense. It sucks!! But what do you do? Stand there and be attacked first before defending yourself? I don't think so!

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:

    Oh, if you shoot someone for merely "brandishing" a knife at 15 - 21 feet you better hope you have a good lawyer and no witnesses.
    What part of someone brandishing/threatening you with a knife would you not consider intent of causingbodily harm or death. If someone unsheathes a knife near me while making remarks of them injuring or killing me, "Smile and wait for flash"

    Are you suggesting a person should wait until they are injured first, or attacked by a knife wielding person before drawing and firing?

    I see a knife being held in a threatening manner, I counter with a firearm, then we'll wait and see what the person with the knife decides to do next. Unless they are absolutely bat-shiit crazy, I believe they may rethink their offense and comply with commands to drop their weapon.

    Which brings up another question, lets say someone threatens you with a knife, you draw down on them to counter their offense, they then back down, you are not forced to shoot them, so you call the coppers to have them handle it from there.
    I would expect almost any cop to be arresting me just because I took the initiative to counter the assailants offense. It sucks!! But what do you do? Stand there and be attacked first before defending yourself? I don't think so!
    A little blood thirsty are you? It is clear that you've never been through shoot/no shoot scenarios. Anyone who thinks that "the Tueller drill" gives a green light to shoot someone threatening you with a knife at a given distance does not understand the concept behind it.

    Someone can have all the intent in the world of "causing bodily harm or death" from 15-21 feet, or from 15-21 miles. If it's 15-21 miles, are you going to drive over and shoot them? Why not? Because they can't harm you at that distance?

    Someone 15-21 feet away from you with a knife cannot hurt you. They can stand 15-21 feet from you all day, yelling all their intent to harm you that they want, and wave the knife in the most menacing manner you can imagine, but unless they have arms that are 15-21 feet long they cannot harm you from that distance.

    "Are you suggesting a person should wait until they are injured first, or attacked by a knife wielding person before drawing and firing? " I've never suggested anything close to that. The lesson of the Tueller Drill is that when faced by a threat armed with a "contact weapon" (e.g., knife, club, broken bottle) you ought to have your handgun drawn and at the ready if they are within a certain unimpeded distance from you. That is because if they do attempt to attack and are within a certain distance, you may not have sufficient time to draw and shoot before they reach you.

    It most definitely does not recommend that you shoot them simply because they are within that distance. If that's your interpretation, then as I stated before, you better have a good lawyer and no witnesses. But yes, unless they start to close that distance, you ought not to shoot.

    "I see a knife being held in a threatening manner, I counter with a firearm, then we'll wait and see what the person with the knife decides to do next. Unless they are absolutely bat-shiit crazy, I believe they may rethink their offense and comply with commands to drop their weapon." Well, there you may have answered your own question. Yes, you counter with your firearm--- with the threat of your firearm, not by shooting it. But do not think for a moment that you are legally justified in shooting them simply because they do not drop their weapon if they are not coming at you.

    Which brings up another question, lets say someone threatens you with a knife, you draw down on them to counter their offense, they then back down, you are not forced to shoot them, so you call the coppers to have them handle it from there.
    I would expect almost any cop to be arresting me just because I took the initiative to counter the assailants offense. It sucks!! But what do you do? Stand there and be attacked first before defending yourself? I don't think so!


    I don't know how many "coppers" you know, but I know a fair number-- and not one of them doesn't strongly support self-defense by non-LEOs. If they didn't support the idea of self-defense I don't think they'd be spending the time they do with the combat league to which I belong, sharing their expertise with us "civilians," teaching such things as weapons retention techniques, shooting while moving, from cover, prone, low light shooting, evaluating our performance in shoot/no shoot situations and questioning us afterward in the same way they would after an actual shooting. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 beat cops, but police trainers, members of SWAT, a police chief, and a detective, from various LE agencies in Dane, Sauk and Jefferson counties.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Shotgun wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:

    Oh, if you shoot someone for merely "brandishing" a knife at 15 - 21 feet you better hope you have a good lawyer and no witnesses.
    What part of someone brandishing/threatening you with a knife would you not consider intent of causingbodily harm or death. If someone unsheathes a knife near me while making remarks of them injuring or killing me, "Smile and wait for flash"

    Are you suggesting a person should wait until they are injured first, or attacked by a knife wielding person before drawing and firing?

    I see a knife being held in a threatening manner, I counter with a firearm, then we'll wait and see what the person with the knife decides to do next. Unless they are absolutely bat-shiit crazy, I believe they may rethink their offense and comply with commands to drop their weapon.

    Which brings up another question, lets say someone threatens you with a knife, you draw down on them to counter their offense, they then back down, you are not forced to shoot them, so you call the coppers to have them handle it from there.
    I would expect almost any cop to be arresting me just because I took the initiative to counter the assailants offense. It sucks!! But what do you do? Stand there and be attacked first before defending yourself? I don't think so!
    A little blood thirsty are you? It is clear that you've never been through shoot/no shoot scenarios. Anyone who thinks that "the Tueller drill" gives a green light to shoot someone threatening you with a knife at a given distance does not understand the concept behind it.

    Someone can have all the intent in the world of "causing bodily harm or death" from 15-21 feet, or from 15-21 miles. If it's 15-21 miles, are you going to drive over and shoot them? Why not? Because they can't harm you at that distance?

    Someone 15-21 feet away from you with a knife cannot hurt you. They can stand 15-21 feet from you all day, yelling all their intent to harm you that they want, and wave the knife in the most menacing manner you can imagine, but unless they have arms that are 15-21 feet long they cannot harm you from that distance.

    "Are you suggesting a person should wait until they are injured first, or attacked by a knife wielding person before drawing and firing? " I've never suggested anything close to that. The lesson of the Tueller Drill is that when faced by a threat armed with a "contact weapon" (e.g., knife, club, broken bottle) you ought to have your handgun drawn and at the ready if they are within a certain unimpeded distance from you. That is because if they do attempt to attack and are within a certain distance, you may not have sufficient time to draw and shoot before they reach you.

    It most definitely does not recommend that you shoot them simply because they are within that distance. If that's your interpretation, then as I stated before, you better have a good lawyer and no witnesses. But yes, unless they start to close that distance, you ought not to shoot.

    "I see a knife being held in a threatening manner, I counter with a firearm, then we'll wait and see what the person with the knife decides to do next. Unless they are absolutely bat-shiit crazy, I believe they may rethink their offense and comply with commands to drop their weapon." Well, there you may have answered your own question. Yes, you counter with your firearm--- with the threat of your firearm, not by shooting it. But do not think for a moment that you are legally justified in shooting them simply because they do not drop their weapon if they are not coming at you.

    Which brings up another question, lets say someone threatens you with a knife, you draw down on them to counter their offense, they then back down, you are not forced to shoot them, so you call the coppers to have them handle it from there.
    I would expect almost any cop to be arresting me just because I took the initiative to counter the assailants offense. It sucks!! But what do you do? Stand there and be attacked first before defending yourself? I don't think so!


    I don't know how many "coppers" you know, but I know a fair number-- and not one of them doesn't strongly support self-defense by non-LEOs. If they didn't support the idea of self-defense I don't think they'd be spending the time they do with the combat league to which I belong, sharing their expertise with us "civilians," teaching such things as weapons retention techniques, shooting while moving, from cover, prone, low light shooting, evaluating our performance in shoot/no shoot situations and questioning us afterward in the same way they would after an actual shooting. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 beat cops, but police trainers, members of SWAT, a police chief, and a detective, from various LE agencies in Dane, Sauk and Jefferson counties.
    The above sounds like a bunch of good classes to take, if they are available to you.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Past experience has shown me that cops will arrest all involved, cite each and every person, and let the prosecuting attorney try to clean up their mess that they created by not investigating what had actually happened.

    It was just over 2 years ago when I had a drunk start attacking me, I used a large Mag-Lite flashlight to fend off their attack, and apparently I had caused some nastyinjuries to them in the process of blocking their attack.

    4 hours later (About 2:00 A.M.) I have 4 cops pounding on my door, wanting me to make a statement. I had told them I had already made my statement to the first responding officer that was dispatched when I made the call to 911 and I refused to even speak to these new herd of cops besides that statement. 4 days later I get a letter from the prosecuting attorrney that he will not be charging me with aggravated battery.
    I did not have my firearm on my side because I was driving, I was waived down by what looked to be the driver of a vehicle stuck in the ditch, I stopped and a fight between 2 other people was already in progress, one of them focused their rage on me, I was forced to defend myself.
    So you tell me, why should a person who has done nothing but act in a defensive manner should get arrested and need to sit in jail, pay bail, lose 20% of that bail money as per county regulations when they are innocent and were caught in a bad situation.



  18. #18
    McX
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    the czak that is nut also speaks the truth.
    bail fee? what the hell, nice little revenuer- i should have thought of that!

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    http://personaldefenseblog.com/2009/...knife-dangers/


    http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/


    when iattended a personal protection class i was taught 21 feet and my weapon goes boom. if a knife is wielded in a threatening manner and he is not carving a piece of woodi would draw and tell him to drop the knife immediately or i will shoot, he hasvery little time left if he does not change his posture beforei would fire.

    just the act of weilding a knife in an aggressive matter is enough to cause me to act on that. if we need to defend our life then do it. We get one spin on earth as far as i know and i sure the hell would not want to try to assess if he is a professional or an amateur with a knife. Let God figure that out, we are not mind readers. if you can not retreat then defend yourself.


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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Shotgun wrote:
    I don't know how many "coppers" you know, but I know a fair number-- and not one of them doesn't strongly support self-defense by non-LEOs. If they didn't support the idea of self-defense I don't think they'd be spending the time they do with the combat league to which I belong, sharing their expertise with us "civilians," teaching such things as weapons retention techniques, shooting while moving, from cover, prone, low light shooting, evaluating our performance in shoot/no shoot situations and questioning us afterward in the same way they would after an actual shooting. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 beat cops, but police trainers, members of SWAT, a police chief, and a detective, from various LE agencies in Dane, Sauk and Jefferson counties.
    So can any of us join this combat league or does it take some special qualifications or prerequisites?Is it pay as you go or do they offer their expertise for free?

    Thanks,
    Dave

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    BerettaFS92Custom wrote:
    http://personaldefenseblog.com/2009/...knife-dangers/


    http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/


    when iattended a personal protection class i was taught 21 feet and my weapon goes boom. if a knife is wielded in a threatening manner and he is not carving a piece of woodi would draw and tell him to drop the knife immediately or i will shoot, he hasvery little time left if he does not change his posture beforei would fire.

    just the act of weilding a knife in an aggressive matter is enough to cause me to act on that. if we need to defend our life then do it. We get one spin on earth as far as i know and i sure the hell would not want to try to assess if he is a professional or an amateur with a knife. Let God figure that out, we are not mind readers. if you can not retreat then defend yourself.
    Note that your link says "Beware of anyone wielding a knife within 21 feet." It does not say "Shoot anyone wielding a knife within 21 feet." There is no absolute rule about distance that tells you when is the time to shoot.

    "i sure the hell would not want to try to assess if he is a professional or an amateur with a knife"

    I think most knife "professionals" are circus acts. There are knife experts however. It's a pretty safe bet that if you see a knife at 21 feet it's not a knife expert. A knife is dangerous in almost anyone's hands, expertise is not a prerequisite to do damage with a knife. With a knife expert you are likely to be unaware that there IS a knife until it is slashed you several times in the blink of an eye, and you're wondering why you've lost the use of a limb and are getting dizzy quickly from the loss of blood.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    McX
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    i will probably be getting dizzy from the loss of blood, but my attacker will be on the ground in shock from 2 .40 cal slugs entering his body in rapid succession. as i lose consciousness i will contemplate who is going to die first; him or me.

  23. #23
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    davegran wrote:
    So can any of us join this combat league or does it take some special qualifications or prerequisites?Is it pay as you go or do they offer their expertise for free?

    Thanks,
    Dave
    Anyone can join the league, but it's definitely not free. It meets Wednesday nights in Deerfield, 10 weeks long. Currently $250 for the advanced level league, plus the expense of 100 rounds of ammo each week. One must complete at least one Level One league to the satisfaction of the league administrator before going into the advanced league because they want to have a good idea of your proficiency but even more so, your safety habits and awareness before allowing you to do the more dangerous things in the advanced league. Even then, the league administrator takes into account his assessment of the abilities and safety habits of the individual members before proceeding with certain scenarios or exercises.

    Level 1 I think might be $200, and 50 rounds each night. I am in the midst of my 16th 10-week league.

    I don't know for sure, but I believe the LEO's receive no compensation when they come in to assist or instruct. There have been Non-LEO guest "experts" at times also, such as lawyers from the Justice Dept. or Public Defender's office talking about legal aspects of defense, carrying a gun, and so on. Also a few times military personnel who recently returned from a Middle East deployment have come in to give some first-hand accounts of what they learned about use of cover, shooting while moving, etc.

    While it is technically a "competitive league" generally most people are not concerned with scores as much as they are with improving their skills. 100% accurate scoring isn't always possible because of certain variations at times, or simply because some people will have a large ragged hole in their targets that make accurate counting of how many rounds went into the 10 ring or the 9 ring impossible. They stopped giving out a prize to the highest scorer at the end of the league a long time ago because it was basically meaningless. I think that's a good thing because it allows us-- or at least me-- to concentrate on getting shots on target quickly with "combat accuracy" rather than having a concern with bulls-eye accuracy. I'm much happier when I can draw and get 4 shots in a six-inch group before another person who is trying for only 10-ring shots gets off their first round. Being the most precise marksman in the world is of little benefit if you've been shot several times before you can get off a round. It is a combat league, after all, not a marksmanship league. Nothing wrong with precision marksmanship, but it's not needed in many handgun fights.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  24. #24
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    McX wrote:
    i will probably be getting dizzy from the loss of blood, but my attacker will be on the ground in shock from 2 .40 cal slugs entering his body in rapid succession. as i lose consciousness i will contemplate who is going to die first; him or me.
    HEH! MxC, small consolation that would be! The goal is to live! Considering relatively small targets such as major arteries are easier to sever with the broad blade of a knife than to hit with a bullet I wouldn't place bets on who dies first.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  25. #25
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    Not everyone can join a combat league or go to fancy training schools. If people want to get some of the most practical and realistic video lessons, I like the Kelly McCann (aka Jim Grover) series. Gunfights are not like TV or the movies.

    Example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHB7R-aL9Go
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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