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Thread: Pro 2A? Does that make you a...

  1. #1
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    Seems that these groups are labeled and treated as domestic terrorists.
    If you are pro 2A then a militia is justified. But the government views a militia as a threat. Historically, a group of human beings rising up against a corrupt government included violence of unspeakable proportions.

    They use fear mongering to turn citizen against citizens. Open Carry could be viewed as a civil libertarian organization. The liberal media loves to spin things off for their own agenda.

    Definition: (Wikipedia)
    Libertarianism is a term adopted by a broad spectrum of political philosophies which advocate the maximization of individual liberty and the minimization or even abolition of the state.


    Here's a recent article:

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/...040210.article


    Thoughts anyone?

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    I fixed the link.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    Seems that these groups are labeled and treated as domestic terrorists.
    If you are pro 2A then a militia is justified. But the government views a militia as a threat. Historically, a group of human beings rising up against a corrupt government included violence of unspeakable proportions.

    They use fear mongering to turn citizen against citizens. Open Carry could be viewed as a civil libertarian organization. The liberal media loves to spin things off for their own agenda.

    Definition: (Wikipedia)
    Libertarianism is a term adopted by a broad spectrum of political philosophies which advocate the maximization of individual liberty and the minimization or even abolition of the state.


    Here's a recent article:

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/...040210.article


    Thoughts anyone?
    Isn't the militia mentioned in the constitution a group of armed citizens that congress is empowered tocall into action? It's certainly not a group of ppl bent on violently overthrowing the government or killing LEO's. That falls under sedition.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    I think the idea or more so the problem is that the "government" is now in the process of scaring the citizens that built this country into a fear that prevents them from standing up for what we believe, and how this country was built. It is a sad world we live in where the government, rather than listen to the people take away their rights in order to achieve their own hidden agendas......... just my opinion.

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    Gundude wrote:
    Isn't the militia mentioned in the constitution a group of armed citizens that congress is empowered tocall into action? It's certainly not a group of ppl bent on violently overthrowing the government or killing LEO's. That falls under sedition.
    Right. I agree 100%
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    So what is a free state? What if your very government is violating the "free state"?

    What is the government views our political stance on open carry as a domestic terrorist threat?

    I'm play devil advocate here to stir up thoughts. In my opinion it is better to have thought it through than to have not at all.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Gundude wrote:
    Isn't the militia mentioned in the constitution a group of armed citizens that congress is empowered tocall into action? It's certainly not a group of ppl bent on violently overthrowing the government or killing LEO's. That falls under sedition.
    I seem to recall reading at one point about how a well regulated militia was necessary to ensuring a free state. If I could only remember where I stumbled across that....

    Interestingly enough, militias [with more than one person in them] are illegal in California. Feel free to come to your own conclusions on that.

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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    Isn't the militia mentioned in the constitution a group of armed citizens that congress is empowered tocall into action? It's certainly not a group of ppl bent on violently overthrowing the government or killing LEO's. That falls under sedition.
    I seem to recall reading at one point about how a well regulated militia was necessary to ensuring a free state. If I could only remember where I stumbled across that....

    Interestingly enough, militias [with more than one person in them] are illegal in California. Feel free to come to your own conclusions on that.
    I believe that was the Bill Of Rights, but as you know, In D.C. that precious piece of paper means nothing!

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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    Interestingly enough, militias [with more than one person in them] are illegal in California. Feel free to come to your own conclusions on that.
    Can you cite where that is from? I did some searching and could not find that law...
    So what's to stop the government from calling a group of OCer's a "militia"

    This puts a lot of groups in the "extremist" category.
    http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/mili...=4&item=19


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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    SomeGuyInCali wrote: But of course, CA PC 11460:

    Code:
    11460.  (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary
    organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be
    punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year
    or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
    both that fine and imprisonment.
    As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an
    organization which is not an agency of the United States government
    or of the State of California, or which is not a private school
    meeting the requirements set forth in Section 48222 of the Education
    Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerrilla
    warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting
    or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with,
    school activities.
    Full section here (that's just the first subsection): http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displa...amp;file=11460

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    So if a group of us UOCers happen to go to the desert for some good old target shooting does that classify us as a militia in training? That is a very broad definition that leaves much to interpretation?..... Much cause for concern there when we are in groups?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    SDPISTOLGRIP wrote:
    So if a group of us UOCers happen to go to the desert for some good old target shooting does that classify us as a militia in training? That is a very broad definition that leaves much to interpretation?..... Much cause for concern there when we are in groups?
    No, it doesn't. But if we have a get together for the express purpose of learning how to start a riot, or start a war against the state, or to do assassinate somebody, or do anything illegal like that, then that gathering would be illegal and the instructors would be subject to arrest.

    If we had a gathering where we learned about guerilla warfare, or how to violently disrupt school, or how to sabotage things, then everybody would be subject to arrest.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    SomeGuyInCali wrote: But of course, CA PC 11460:

    Code:
    11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary
    organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be
    punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year
    or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
    both that fine and imprisonment.
    As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an
    organization which is not an agency of the United States government
    or of the State of California, or which is not a private school
    meeting the requirements set forth in Section 48222 of the Education
    Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerrilla
    warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting
    or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with,
    school activities.
    Full section here (that's just the first subsection): http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displa...amp;file=11460

    Read what I highlighted in red. I don't think we fit that scenerio. Target shooting is not training in guerrilla warfare.

    I think we are in the evolutionary process of learning to govern ourselves. It may take a few more generations till we get it right.


    edit:highlight didn't work....copy paste

    but which engages in instruction or training in guerrilla
    warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting
    or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with,
    school activities.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    UN-real. These people lose their child because they taught him to NOT trust the government. It's happening all around us.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/cops-cps...overnment.html

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    In following this 2A discussion, I feel compelled to point out that in addition to personal defense and hunting, the citizenry keeps and bears arms for fear of a federal government which refuses conformity to the Constitution.
    District of Columbia v. Heller Decision (2008)



    In the Syllabus, the Reporter of Decisions summarizes:



    “The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.”



    In the SCOTUS decision, Justice Scalia opines:



    “It was understood across the political spectrum that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.”



    “But the threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens’ militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution.”



    “In addition, in a shorter 1840 work Story wrote: “One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offence to keep arms, and by substituting a regular army in the stead of a resort to the militia.””

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Here are some terrorist comments:



    "Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state." - Thomas Jefferson


    “And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms…The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots.” - Thomas Jefferson


    “This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of their existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.” – Abraham Lincoln


    “We the people are the rightful masters of Congress and the courts; not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” – Abraham Lincoln
    Today's government would have locked these guys up in a NY minute!
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Here are some terrorist comments:



    "Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state." - Thomas Jefferson


    “And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms…The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots.” - Thomas Jefferson


    “This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of their existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.” – Abraham Lincoln


    “We the people are the rightful masters of Congress and the courts; not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” – Abraham Lincoln
    Today's government would have locked these guys up in a NY minute!
    reading stuff like this makes me really upset. America is so lost.
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    Be careful what is said in public forums.

    We are going to see more "militia groups" charged (and convicted) for sedition in the coming days.

    Fear thy neighbor, for they may be Right-Wing Extremists™
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    demnogis wrote:
    Be careful what is said in public forums.

    We are going to see more "militia groups" charged (and convicted) for sedition in the coming days.

    Fear thy neighbor, for they may be Right-Wing Extremists™
    Well, if being in a militia is what this government calls criminal, then it is not the government established by the founding fathers. And if this governmentrefuses to acknowledge the Constitution (especially 2A) and starts rounding up gun owners because they are a part of the citizen's militia, now is a better time to confront this situation than later when the government has disarmed the populace!

    Here's a nice little modern day revolutionary folk song that you might enjoy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W57aBMYKvU

    But you are right in that we need to "Be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves."
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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    SoL, I quoted "militia groups" specifically for a reason.

    They are seeking to make examples of groups that plan for, train for and organize actions which plan to overthrow the government or specifically do harm to their agents.

    We are not one of those groups. In fact, I highly doubt we can classify ourselves as a group due to our low cohesion. As Theseus said the equivalent of herding cats.

    Right-Wing Extremists are the new Muslim Terrorist Jihadists, Japs and Commies of previous fear-mongering campaigns qgainst previous agressors. As the administration changes the new antagonist to fear is labeled. It is the slight-of-hand to keep the sheeple from the real issues at hand.

    Sedition has always been Government's tool against dissent, and Treason is The People's tool against traitors to the Constitution.

    The only problem now is that it's not becoming of a civilized society to punish traitors. We are "A Nation Of Laws" now, not a nation of freedoms and liberties...
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    demnogis, you don't have to answer this but let me ask as food for thought:

    At what point does the populace say that the government is no longer subject to the people and its Constitution?

    How does a populace invoke the 2A provision and, as President Lincoln said, "...overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."?

    And how does a populace, as President Jefferson said concerning a country's rulers, are"...warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

    The 2A provision is in the Constitution, not to protectthe government from its people, but to protect the people froma government that ignoresConstitutional order.
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    SoL,
    I agree but cannot articulate in a public forum.

    Reading over a lot of revolutionary war history, the roots of how and why our forefathers created this once-great nation of freedoms and liberties... it really adds perspective. They don't teah you any of this stuff in school!

    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    demnogis, you don't have to answer this but let me ask as food for thought:

    At what point does the populace say that the government is no longer subject to the people and its Constitution?

    How does a populace invoke the 2A provision and, as President Lincoln said, "...overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."?

    And how does a populace, as President Jefferson said concerning a country's rulers, areÂ*"...warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

    The 2A provision is in the Constitution, not to protectÂ*the government from its people, but to protect the people fromÂ*a government that ignoresÂ*Constitutional order.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    C'mon folks, John and Mike don't want that stuff on this forum, so don't sit there and skirt around the edges of it and pushing the limit, please?

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    NightOwl wrote:
    C'mon folks, John and Mike don't want that stuff on this forum, so don't sit there and skirt around the edges of it and pushing the limit, please?
    It's seems to me to all be relevant to OC; as the basis of OC is 2A. The more we understand 2A the better we understand purposes of OCing.

    Are there particular posting rules that have been violated? If so, I'd be happy to adjust my postings.
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Nightowl is right,

    In particular this forum should not be in the business of quoting tyrants like Father Abraham. The best thing that happened to him is his night at the Theater. I mean really what can you say about an executive that micro managed the slaughter of over 500 thousand of his own people; white, black, woman, children, and the feeble

    God willing we all have the courage to water that tree should that day greet us.

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    PaleoCon wrote:
    Nightowl is right,

    In particular this forum should not be in the business of quoting tyrants like Father Abraham. The best thing that happened to him is his night at the Theater. I mean really what can you say about an executive that micro managed the slaughter of over 500 thousand of his own people; white, black, woman, children, and the feeble

    God willing we all have the courage to water that tree should that day greet us.

    Truth has no allegiance to race, creed, color, political view, nationality or the like. Iftruth werejudgedby whether one had imperfection in his life, we would all be liars. But truth is common to all men: more commonin some than in others. So I will quote truth from the lips of those who speak it.


    "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." - Mohandas Gandhi

    "I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against." - Malcolm X

    "Truth is the property of no individual but is the treasure of all men." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold." - Leo Tolstoy

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