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Thread: Mississippi open carry in the news

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    http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/news/...ger-discussion

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    . . . others said they probably wouldn’t even notice a holstered gun or wouldn’t think twice if they did.

    “If it looked like he had all of his marbles, then I wouldn’t object a bit,” Hattiesburg resident Karen Mannoni said.

    In the state of Mississippi, with the proper permits, a person can carry a gun out into public as long as it is concealed or partially concealed, according to Mississippi Code 45-9-101.

    The permit must be carried at all times a weapon is being carried and the carrier must always be able to produce a valid form of identification.

    Adams County Sheriff Chuck Mayfield said “partially concealed” allows for holstered weapons, since the holster would cover a portion of the gun.

    In addition, gun owners with permits can place a gun wherever they’d like to, whether in plain sight or not, in their own vehicle, business or house, Police Chief Mike Mullins said.

    “My professional recommendation is out of sight, out of mind,” Mullins said. “If you are going to carry a weapon, keep it out of plain sight.”

    He added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon.

    Mullins and Mayfield both said they support the right of law-abiding citizens to carry a permitted weapon and understand that many people do it as a means of protection.

    “Our deputies, unfortunately, cannot be everywhere at all times,” Mayfield said. “We support responsible people carrying a weapon for self defense.

    “The only people with guns we’ve had a problem with are the criminals. If you are a law abiding citizen, you should be able to protect yourself.”

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    "He [Police Chief Mike Mullins]added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon."

    Is this true? If not, someone may want to contact this chief and his city officialsbefore he or one of his officers illegally detains or arrests someone for declining to answer the questions and his department and city are facing a civil suit.
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    Mike wrote:
    Adams County Sheriff Chuck Mayfield said “partially concealed” allows for holstered weapons, since the holster would cover a portion of the gun.
    What a crock of ****.

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    DanM wrote:
    "He [Police Chief Mike Mullins]added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon."

    Is this true? If not, someone may want to contact this chief and his city officialsbefore he or one of his officers illegally detains or arrests someone for declining to answer the questions and his department and city are facing a civil suit.
    Thought you would be interested in this:


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    PA-Carry wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    "He [Police Chief Mike Mullins]added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon."

    Is this true? If not, someone may want to contact this chief and his city officialsbefore he or one of his officers illegally detains or arrests someone for declining to answer the questions and his department and city are facing a civil suit.
    Thought you would be interested in this:
    That attachment states a lot of stuff without explanation fo cite to authority - I question the correctness of the last 2 items in everry state - some states, maybe: "If this is Yes, you must notify any officer that approaches you on any type of official business, that youhave a permit/license to carry and have a firearm. (traffic stops or if stopped on the street to ask you questions concerning a crime; etc.) Failure to notify the officer puts you in violation of that statesCCW Laws. If this is No, you are only required to tell any officer if asked. Remember, it is against the law for you to lie to a Police Officer."

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    Do not lie to the officer. Exercise yourfifth amendment right.

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    Lots of misinformation in thereferenced article.

    He added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon.
    There is no statuatory requirement to declare that you have a firearm in a vehicle though common sense says that if asked it wouldn't be advantageousto lie about it.

    In addition, gun owners with permits can place a gun wherever they’d like to, whether in plain sight or not, in their own vehicle, business or house, Police Chief Mike Mullins said.
    There is no requirement to havepermit to carry a firearm in your car or home.

    Laws do apply that prevent guns on school campuses, in banks or at post offices, among a few other places.
    There is no prohibition on permit holders carrying in banks.

    This article shows the confused mess that isMississippi lawon this issue. Most LEO's are confused as to what is actually law. In a nutshell, per the MS constitution, it's legal to carry but the legislature can regulate or forbid the carrying of concealed weapons. Seems simple enough, right? Open carry is legal per the constitution. OOPs, not so fast. The CC statute has an ambiguous phrase about firearms being concealed "in part"and a concurring opinion to a MS Supreme court case defined aholstered hand gun as "concealed in part". That concurring opinion has been used as the basis to deny unlicensed open carry in this state.

    We are working to get the laws corrected in many areas. The Governor just signed legislation that will allow permit holders to carry in public parks so we are making some progress but open carry is not high on many people's lists of things to correct about Mississippi gun laws. One step at a time but right now the legislature seems to be a better agent for change than the courts.

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    It sort of surprises me that there's no clear plastic holsters available for sale because of things like that. Not a bit concealed if you can see the whole thing.

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    smttysmth02gt wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Adams County Sheriff Chuck Mayfield said “partially concealed” allows for holstered weapons, since the holster would cover a portion of the gun.
    What a crock of @#$%.
    I agree, BUT in the Mississippi statutes it clearly states that you MUST have a permit if the weapon is concealed in whole or in part. It also clearly states that a holster, throng, etc. is concealing the weapon 'in part'. Therefore OC is ONLY LEGAL when you have participated in another form of taxation on the citizens of MS, your $200 permit.

    I agree it is a crock, but that is why i chose to vote with my feet and get the heck out of there.

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    Mike wrote:
    PA-Carry wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    "He [Police Chief Mike Mullins]added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon."

    Is this true? If not, someone may want to contact this chief and his city officialsbefore he or one of his officers illegally detains or arrests someone for declining to answer the questions and his department and city are facing a civil suit.
    Thought you would be interested in this:
    That attachment states a lot of stuff without explanation fo cite to authority - I question the correctness of the last 2 items in everry state - some states, maybe: "If this is Yes, you must notify any officer that approaches you on any type of official business, that youhave a permit/license to carry and have a firearm. (traffic stops or if stopped on the street to ask you questions concerning a crime; etc.) Failure to notify the officer puts you in violation of that statesCCW Laws. If this is No, you are only required to tell any officer if asked. Remember, it is against the law for you to lie to a Police Officer."
    Believe I got this off of http://www.handgunlaw.us/ . Checking the website, I see that it was from there that I downloaded the PDF (same format and fonts). Can't locate the file on there, though. Been a year or two since I got it.

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    PA-Carry wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    "He [Police Chief Mike Mullins]added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon."

    Is this true? If not, someone may want to contact this chief and his city officialsbefore he or one of his officers illegally detains or arrests someone for declining to answer the questions and his department and city are facing a civil suit.
    Thought you would be interested in this:
    Your attachment of USOffLimitsA-M.pdf is out of date as it refers to NPS land.
    They need to update this.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    PA-Carry wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    "He [Police Chief Mike Mullins]added that if a law enforcement officer asks if you have a gun in your vehicle it is your duty to tell the officer about any weapon."

    Is this true? If not, someone may want to contact this chief and his city officialsbefore he or one of his officers illegally detains or arrests someone for declining to answer the questions and his department and city are facing a civil suit.
    Thought you would be interested in this:
    Your attachment of USOffLimitsA-M.pdf is out of date as it refers to NPS land.
    They need to update this.

    Yata hey
    OK.. You're right.. but then again, are most of the time (that I've seen, anyway).

    Yata hey!

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    kimberfella616 wrote:
    smttysmth02gt wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Adams County Sheriff Chuck Mayfield said “partially concealed” allows for holstered weapons, since the holster would cover a portion of the gun.
    What a crock of @#$%.
    I agree, BUT in the Mississippi statutes it clearly states that you MUST have a permit if the weapon is concealed in whole or in part. It also clearly states that a holster, throng, etc. is concealing the weapon 'in part'. Therefore OC is ONLY LEGAL when you have participated in another form of taxation on the citizens of MS, your $200 permit.

    I agree it is a crock, but that is why i chose to vote with my feet and get the heck out of there.
    Bzzt. Partially correct, partially incorrect.

    The MS criminal statutes do not define concealment. The reason that a holster is (fuzzily) considered "partial concealment" is due to a concurring opinion by then-Chief Justice Lee in "L.M., JR., S.T. & D.S. v. STATE of Mississippi". The text was posted by gunluvinatty in this thread, about halfway down the page: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum32/28581.html

    And on a side note, the total cost for a new permit application is $132. It's laid out on the MS Highway Patrol Firearm Permits Unit's website. http://www.dps.state.ms.us/dps/dps.n...s?OpenDocument

    For reference, MS 97-37 covers "Weapons and Explosives". http://michie.com/mississippi/

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    If a LEO comes knocking at yourdoor you don't have to tell them you have weapons in your house. Since, Mississippi considers a motor vehicle an extension of your homemy first sentence seems to apply.

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    Ummm... What happened to this...I go open carry everyday..

    Mississippi

    Summary
    Mississippi is an open carry state and the state constitution appears to guarantee this right. Further, localities are generally preempted under state law from enacting local gun control ordnances that might restrict open carry. However, Miss. Code 97-37-1 & 45-9-101 operate together to ban carriage of a handgun "concealed in whole or in part" unless the carrier is inside a motor vehicle or possesses a License to Carry a Concealed Pistol or Revolver. As the Mississippi courts have said that a handgun in a holster is concealed in part, a License to Carry a Concealed Pistol or Revolver is required to openly carry a handgun in a holster in Mississippi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShannonAR15 View Post
    Mississippi

    Summary
    Mississippi is an open carry state and the state constitution appears to guarantee this right. Further, localities are generally preempted under state law from enacting local gun control ordnances that might restrict open carry. However, Miss. Code 97-37-1 & 45-9-101 operate together to ban carriage of a handgun "concealed in whole or in part" unless the carrier is inside a motor vehicle or possesses a License to Carry a Concealed Pistol or Revolver. As the Mississippi courts have said that a handgun in a holster is concealed in part, a License to Carry a Concealed Pistol or Revolver is required to openly carry a handgun in a holster in Mississippi.
    Not exactly, one supreme court judge said something along those lines. The court case had nothing to do with holsters though so even though the judge agreed with the majority he then went off in left field with his own opinion. Shortly afterwards the laws were changed making a vehicle like an extension of the home thus legalizing what the majority said was illegal.

    If you know of more than one court case that has said it is not physically possible for a person to openly carry a weapon and thus be protected by the MS constitution, please provide referances. I like to know what I'm up against.

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    Sounds like Michael Kerekes was using outdated info. Plus the fact that Mullins and Mayfield are just trying to avoid ANY issue by further mis-informing. Even SEC. 45-9-101. License to carry concealed pistol or revolver is outdated!
    AND the DPS hasn't corrected their data...Firearms Permit Unit

    FACT for MS: $132 fee. Good for FIVE years. Takes 45 days(if you pass checks). Period!
    There's info available within the application on where you CAN and CAN'T have a weapon. Knowledge Is Power.

    It's been the talk of this town since I first heard of CC that most around here interpret MS gun laws their own way and just hope it works....i.e., "Concealed = IN a holster whilst carrying in the open". And the way the law is written, one could interpret it in order to cover their arse in just about any situation. BUT, sorry, I gotta call BS! Has everyone lost (maybe never had) their common sense!? Billy's brother's sister's boyfriend got caught OC'ing one time...nothing happened! Really?
    BECAUSE of the way the law is written here, it's open for interpretation by EVERYONE.
    Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

    Want to get around it??? CC while B'ing about it to your elected officials!!! We NEED a clear(er) and concise definition of Open vs Concealed.

    Just my opinion...and I might be nuts today...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavon View Post
    Sounds like Michael Kerekes was using outdated info. Plus the fact that Mullins and Mayfield are just trying to avoid ANY issue by further mis-informing. Even SEC. 45-9-101. License to carry concealed pistol or revolver is outdated!
    AND the DPS hasn't corrected their data...Firearms Permit Unit

    FACT for MS: $132 fee. Good for FIVE years. Takes 45 days(if you pass checks). Period!
    There's info available within the application on where you CAN and CAN'T have a weapon. Knowledge Is Power.

    It's been the talk of this town since I first heard of CC that most around here interpret MS gun laws their own way and just hope it works....i.e., "Concealed = IN a holster whilst carrying in the open". And the way the law is written, one could interpret it in order to cover their arse in just about any situation. BUT, sorry, I gotta call BS! Has everyone lost (maybe never had) their common sense!? Billy's brother's sister's boyfriend got caught OC'ing one time...nothing happened! Really?
    BECAUSE of the way the law is written here, it's open for interpretation by EVERYONE.
    Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

    Want to get around it??? CC while B'ing about it to your elected officials!!! We NEED a clear(er) and concise definition of Open vs Concealed.

    Just my opinion...and I might be nuts today...
    Are you under the impression that OC would be illegal if a pistol could not be considered concealed when worn in a holster? If so you are ABSOLUTLY wrong. Saying that everything is concealed carry is the only way a permit or law can have anything to do with it. Open carry is completely protected by the MS constitution.

    Article 3, section 12, MS constitution:
    The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons
    Concealed carry is the only thing under the control of the government. If not for much hearsay dating back a long time, and possibly racism and other not very nice factors, MS would easily be recognized as a OC state where a permit is not needed.

    Also, remember that even if the right to BEAR ARMS was not protected, there is no law saying that one can not carry an unconcealed weapon in MS. Such a law would be EASILY rendered unconstitutional. In the US system one can do anything that is not specifically against the law. Under opressive systems one might expect to need specific legal permission for all activities, but thankfully such is not the case here.

    We do not need a better defiition of OPEN vs CONCEALED. We need the constitution, which is VERY clear on the subject, to be protected and, more importantly, adhered to by our courts, legislatures and law enforcement officers.

    If you think the constitution is not clear I will help clarify it.

    The right of every citizen to keep (anyone can buy and have ownership of) and bear arms (to bear arms is to carry arms) in defense of his home, person, or property, (to be able to protect ones person and property one must be able to ALWAYS be armed) or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, (this is just an extra reason since responding to a civil power as such is a duty of citizens and militias) shall not be called in question, (no power of the state can take this away or limit it in any way, it is an unquestionable right) but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons (Legislatures can say how when or if persons can hide the fact that they are armed from common view). If the constitution really does imply ALL bearing of arms falls under the carrying of concealed weapons and thus the bearing of ALL arms falls under the legislature's regulatory or prohibitive authority , why not simply leave out the word concealed in the qualifying statement and say: The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying weapons. The answer of course would be this statement makes no sense, one can not have a right that "shall not be called in question", which is subject to prohibition! The statement that conveys such meaning would be: The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying weapons on property not his own.
    Last edited by Daylen; 05-13-2011 at 05:30 PM.

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    I was clearly stating that the originally article is full of errors and total BS.

    This is exactly why there needs to be clarity to current MS law.

    Are you under the impression that OC would be illegal if a pistol could not be considered concealed when worn in a holster? If so you are ABSOLUTLY wrong. Saying that everything is concealed carry is the only way a permit or law can have anything to do with it. Open carry is completely protected by the MS constitution
    Heck No and please provide proof of last statement. Clear proof. Not an interpretation of MS law as written. Nowhere has anyone clearly specified to MS being an OC state...without referring back to 2A. Which is fine. Damn glad it's there! But the issue is state law...

    We do not need a better defiition of OPEN vs CONCEALED. We need the constitution, which is VERY clear on the subject, to be protected and, more importantly, adhered to by our courts, legislatures and law enforcement officers.
    I agree 100%. All states should follow the Constitution. But they don't and that's why these questions keep coming up.
    "Can I OC in MS?" A simple yes will not do without quoting the constitution. Why? I'll vote and keep voting in the hopes that "yes" will be enough.

    I have posted on several forums asking about OC in MS. Most still believe CC is best because of the way the law is written/interpreted. And it seems most will CC to avoid conflict (or being the first target...to each their own I say).

    Daylen, I will surely come straight to you for some clarity and advise if ever in a situation with LEO abusing there authority.

    I'll be back to check the status here, but for now I'm headed to my girl's softball game (where I can't carry...public park) and tomorrow my other girl's birthday party (I could, but will not in fear of roller skating with my .45 and falling on it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavon View Post
    Heck No and please provide proof of last statement. Clear proof. Not an interpretation of MS law as written. Nowhere has anyone clearly specified to MS being an OC state...without referring back to 2A. Which is fine. Damn glad it's there! But the issue is state law...
    Is the MS constitution itself not proof enough of what it protects? What sort of proof are you looking for beyond the MS constitution; it is fairly self defining? Codified Law does not always adhere to the MS constitution as I am sure you are aware. However, a careful reading of Title 97 and maybe one other section for schools provides some more clarity on the possible meaning of the code; even though it shows some glaring problems as well. Multiple places in the code refer to openly carrying a firearm; which means the codified laws of MS recognize that it is possible to carry a firearm unconcealed.

    97-37-17. Possession of weapons by students; aiding or encouraging


    Also, there are attorney general's opinions, such as:

    Office of the Attorney General
    State of Mississippi

    January 14, 1993


    Re: Concealed Weapons


    Mr. Pete Bowen
    Chief of Police
    P.O. Box 1408
    Columbus, MS 39703


    Dear Chief Bowen:


    Attorney General Mike Moore has received your letter and has assigned it to me for reply. A copy of your letter is attached for reference.

    In your letter you ask about carrying concealed and unconcealed weapons and the law on the same.

    The state law makes carrying certain weapons, including handguns, concealed in whole or part a crime. There are stated exceptions to this general statement, including in a motor vehicle, a person's home or business, which includes the property surrounding such home or business. See 97371 of the Mississippi Code of 1972. There are also certain affirmative defenses to a charge of carrying a concealed weapon. See 97379 of the Mississippi Code of 1972. Our law also allows two kinds of permits for carrying concealed weapons, one kind for security guards, bank guards, etc., section 97377, and another kind for the general public, section 459101.

    If a handgun is not carried concealed in whole or part then it is not in violation of state law (there can be exceptions, for example section 973717 for any illegal possession by a student on a campus or school grounds). Exactly what constitutes concealed in whole or part is largely a question of fact which we do not determine, and would depend on the facts of each case.
    Very truly yours,

    Mike Moore
    Attorney General

    By: Larry J. Stroud
    Special Assistant Attorney General



    Attachment


    November 23, 1992

    Mike Moore, Attorney General

    Post Office Box 220

    Jackson, Ms 39205

    ref: Request for Attorney General Opinion


    Dear Sir:

    Does Section 459101 of the Mississippi Code allow a permit holder to carry a handgun unconcealed, ie, holster or does it allow only the carrying of a handgun concealed (not visible)?

    Does Section 97371 or any other State Statute allow for the unconcealed carrying of a handgun, ie, in a holster?

    If, the carrying of a handgun unconcealed, as in a holster is prohibited, then by what section should a person be charged and what appropriate penalty would apply?

    Your quick response will be greatly appreciated. My mailing address is PO Box 1408, Columbus, Ms 397031408.

    Sincerely,

    Pete Bowen
    Chief of Police

    1993 WL 669065 (Miss.A.G.)

    END OF DOCUMENT

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    If Blackhawk made a clear Serpa I wonder how that "holster partially concealing" argument would work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Dave View Post
    If Blackhawk made a clear Serpa I wonder how that "holster partially concealing" argument would work.
    You cannot carry a pistol or revolver without a firearms permit. That's what we have to work with. "Smoke and Mirrors" is going to land your butt in jail with a concealed weapons charge.

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    Exactly what constitutes concealed in whole or part is largely a question of fact which we do not determine, and would depend on the facts of each case.
    What facts? It's either concealed or open right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    You cannot carry a pistol or revolver without a firearms permit. That's what we have to work with. "Smoke and Mirrors" is going to land your butt in jail with a concealed weapons charge.
    I contend that one SHOULD not carry without a concealed pistol permit. Language has meaning and I think advocates for the constitution should never budge from the fact that the MS constitution protects and does not allow for requireing a permit to carry unconcealed.

    I do agree in MS if someone plans to carry a firearm, please get a concealed pistol permit first. We do not need an unplanned court case to rule against the constitution. Things are already precarious enough as things stand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavon View Post
    What facts? It's either concealed or open right?
    Black...GGGRRRREEEEYYYYYYYY...White
    Such a determination is up to the legislature and courts, not the attorney general. Also, I think that AG was trying to be constitutional, yet not go against what a single MS supreme court judge said (which was totally against the constitution and had nothing to do with the case before him).

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