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Thread: Peninsula Town Center

  1. #1
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    I've OC'd there before with no issues, and seen posts that others have as well. I was looking at their website today and saw this:

    http://www.peninsulatowncenter.com/I...Standards.aspx

    Maintain Proper Decorum
    Do not engage in behavior that can be described as obscene, offensive and/or may disturb others or interrupt normal business activity. Examples include:
    • Running, yelling, skating, skateboarding, rollerblading, playing of radios or littering.
    • Possessing any open container of alcohol or consuming alcohol anywhere except in businesses licensed to sell adult beverages or at official PTC events.
    • The use of offensive language such as swear words or racial slurs as well as inappropriate hand gestures, including but not restricted to gang signs or symbols, loud or boisterous behavior, or throwing of objects.
    • Inappropriate attire. No offensive message or picture may be displayed on clothing.
    • Unauthorized photography/videography on PTC property.
    • Soliciting, including the exchange of personal information, picketing, literature distribution or panhandling.
    • Failure to respond to a reasonable request or direction from PTC staff.
    • Refusal to present appropriate photo ID with proof of age if requested by security or other PTC staff.
    • Animals that are not in the company of and trained to assist physically challenged persons.
    • Weapons of any kind.



    Wondering if I should send them an email or not.


  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    No indication that the mall is publicly owned, and to the contrary, the Wiki article, as well as a referenced newspaper article in there state it is owned by "Mall Properties".

    All you can do is say "please don't do that". I wonder if that extra 0.5% sales tax surcharge is hurting business?

    TFred

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    Regular Member thnycav's Avatar
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    Does not sound like you can do much there. I guess they want you to go buy something then get out.

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    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Tralpat wrote:
    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.
    I'm not familiar with the layout of this place beyond what Google Maps shows me, but if it's a typical mall, the private property begins as you enter the parking lot from a public street. If you are talking about the sidewalk going up to the stores, but inside the parking lot area, it's all privately owned.

    TFred


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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    "For that reason, we at PTC, with the endorsement of our Citizens Advisory Committee and the Hampton Youth Commission, have established the following Community Standards..."

    I OC-ed several times to Chipotle (often after gun shows) and Five Guys with my kids. I was thinking of trying some of the other newer restaurants around there like the Pub. I guess they don't want my business.

    I wonder how many of the restaurants/stores agree with the above statement? Would it be worth it to have someone from VCDL contact the bolded groups or are they so biased it would be a waste of time?


    Edited to add: I went to their contact page and let them know the policy was causing the loss of my and others business. I'm not sure their minds can be changed but we can try.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Tralpat wrote:
    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.
    I'm not familiar with the layout of this place beyond what Google Maps shows me, but if it's a typical mall, the private property begins as you enter the parking lot from a public street. If you are talking about the sidewalk going up to the stores, but inside the parking lot area, it's all privately owned.

    TFred

    This Google map image is a few years old. They have torn down that "mall" and rebuilt an outdoor mall.


  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Tralpat wrote:
    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.
    I'm not familiar with the layout of this place beyond what Google Maps shows me, but if it's a typical mall, the private property begins as you enter the parking lot from a public street. If you are talking about the sidewalk going up to the stores, but inside the parking lot area, it's all privately owned.

    TFred
    This Google map image is a few years old. They have torn down that "mall" and rebuilt an outdoor mall.
    Ah, I see. I wouldn't just assume that the streets are now public property though. There are new style malls that are designed to appear as small towns. I believe there is a process to turn over the public areas (including roads) of a private development to the local jurisdiction, and many are reluctant to take them in these economic times.

    I don't know the answer, I'm just saying that it is not safe to assume the answer is what it may appear to be.

    TFred

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    Tralpat wrote:
    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.
    Hmm, well that's too bad. I've OC'd to that Chipotle many times (15+) and never had any issues. I'm pretty sure the last time I was there a security guard noticed. He didn't say anything. Since it appears they are enforcing it maybe I will send them an email.

    Anyone else notice this at the bottom of their community standards page?

    "These PTC Community Standards are not intended to deprive any person of their applicable civil rights or liberties under the law. If you feel your rights are being violated, please notify the shopping center Security Department"

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    mpg9999 wrote:
    Tralpat wrote:
    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.
    Hmm, well that's too bad. I've OC'd to that Chipotle many times (15+) and never had any issues. I'm pretty sure the last time I was there a security guard noticed. He didn't say anything. Since it appears they are enforcing it maybe I will send them an email.

    Anyone else notice this at the bottom of their community standards page?

    "These PTC Community Standards are not intended to deprive any person of their applicable civil rights or liberties under the law. If you feel your rights are being violated, please notify the shopping center Security Department"
    One has few rights on someone else's property. Carrying a firearm is not among them. Complaining along this line of reasoning doesn't really help anyone, IMHO.

    TFred

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    TFred wrote:
    mpg9999 wrote:
    Tralpat wrote:
    I was asked to leave there on Saturday. I have OC'd to Target, 5 Guys, and Chipotle before. Saturday, as we were walking into 5 Guys, one of the security guards stopped me and informed me that it was in fact private property and that firearms were not allowed. Not exactly sure where the public and private property boundaries are though as I was on the sidewalk outside.
    Hmm, well that's too bad. I've OC'd to that Chipotle many times (15+) and never had any issues. I'm pretty sure the last time I was there a security guard noticed. He didn't say anything. Since it appears they are enforcing it maybe I will send them an email.

    Anyone else notice this at the bottom of their community standards page?

    "These PTC Community Standards are not intended to deprive any person of their applicable civil rights or liberties under the law. If you feel your rights are being violated, please notify the shopping center Security Department"
    One has few rights on someone else's property. Carrying a firearm is not among them. Complaining along this line of reasoning doesn't really help anyone, IMHO.

    TFred
    Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that the right to carry trumps private property.

  12. #12
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    mpg9999 wrote:
    Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that the right to carry trumps private property.
    Seems that we're an increasing minority these days.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    Would it be worth it to have someone from VCDL contact the bolded groups or are they so biased it would be a waste of time?


    Edited to add: I went to their contact page and let them know the policy was causing the loss of my and others business. I'm not sure their minds can be changed but we can try.
    "Someone from VCDL" usually translates into you, doing exactly what you did - contact them and express your disappointment and disagreement with their policy.

    As much as the organization has developed a reputation for supporting and protecting the rights of gun owners, thee is no mgical talisman associated with the initials "VCDL". The power that it has comes from the members uniting in a common cause.

    And that power comes from one person standing up for gun rights and against irrational gun prohibitions. That person is not necessarily the President of VCDL, although at times when repeated individual efforts are not sucessful the weight of the organization, through the office of the President, may need to be brought to bear. I've always heard the question "What have you already done?" asked when a situation or problem is brought to VCDL.

    Thanks for contacting them via their website. Don't let up the pressure on them to give you a response.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Public space/sidewalks, or private, your guess is as good as mine.


    Tax Increment Financing, TIF, was used to help build this mall, sidewalks, lights, park, etc.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Town_Center

    The specs of the deal...
    http://www.hampton.gov/press_release/cda_details.html

    A TIF is a way for a city to divert future tax money to a district, in this case a privately owned mall. From what I can tell these are private streets and private public space.
    “TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance current improvements (which theoretically will create the conditions for those future gains).”
    This is like building a home by tearing down a dilapidated house, then paying for it with future gains in taxes to pay for mortgage, with the tax base set at the dilapidated house value? Very fair to others with the same businesses, oops, make that houses in the same district.


    http://www.hampton.gov/press_release/cda_details.html is very vague as to if the city purchased land, leasehold, or just got a right of way for the city to go onto the land for the improvements.

    Acquisition of fee and/or leasehold interests or rights-of-way for public improvements (consists of approximately 16 acres)

    I read somewhere where someone was asked to leave because she was walking the dog in the public park. Another, or the same, was asked to leave because they were walking around taking pictures. If you noticed the pictures of this place are "well" done, i.e. shot from rooftops down, or low on the ground, to give the appearance of a larger, grander place then it is.

    One of the problems and some of the misunderstanding is caused by all the press release from the city/mall, about open public parks, free public parking, no tax money "up front" going to the place, that the 0.5% shoppers fee goes to the the "free public spaces", parks, etc, etc. From what you can get from that press release, 65.6 million of tax money, what is that 2.1 8 million in taxes per year, from the PTC, is used to pay off 65.5 million of the 90 million in bonds? The 0.5% shoppers fee to help out the rest? You figure it out.

    Interesting tax money going to property where you can't even walk a dog. What I like about that free parking deck is that the 168 highend apartments have a walkover to it. Guess that is why it is placed where it is. Gee, 168 car slots going to apartments? Lets hope these people don't have 2 cars, or most of them are bus riders. That deck isn't that big.

    Hampton is planning to rip out all up and down Mercury for this kind of development.
    Lets hope they don't finance it the same way, or apply the same "rules".

    http://www.hampton.gov/ed/iframe.htm...aster_plan.pdf




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    PS,

    Six candidates file for three spots on Hampton City Council

    http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-lo...,7671410.story

    Upcoming candidate forum, in case you want to ask them questions..
    http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-lo...,4760209.story

    Good luck with that.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Me thinks much of the outside area is now public property. There are Hampton parking meters on the new roads that arewinding through "mall town".
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    Me thinks much of the outside area is now public property. There are Hampton parking meters on the new roads that arewinding through "mall town".
    It appears that the meters are some sort of city/private hybrid. Not sure how this works.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The streets are owned by the Peninsula Town Center Community Development Authority. Here is the info for Merchant Lane from the City of Hampton Website:

    General Info









    PIN/LRSN:


    13002037









    MAP NO:


    07F001 00 000B23




    PARENT MAP NO:


    07F001 00 000B1




    OWNER:


    PENINSULA TOWN CENTER COMM DEV AUTH




    PROPERTYADDRESS:


    MERCHANT LN




    GISADDRESS:


    MERCHANT LN ROW




    NEIGHBORHOOD:


    9070




    PROPERTY USE:


    604 /Exempt




    PLAT BOOK/PAGE:


    0000/0000




    MAILING ADDRESS:


    C/O KAUFMAN & CANOLES ATTN MASTRACCO
    150 WEST MAIN ST STE 2100
    NORFOLK VA23510




    LEGAL DESCRIPTION:


    PENINSULA TWN CTR BLK23 1.4861 AC



    Link: http://www.hampton.va.us/sol/propertysearch/accept.html



    The Peninsula Town Center Community Development Authority is a public entity created by the Hampton City Council.

    • The Community Development Authority, recently established by City Council, has the authority to issue bonds to finance the public infrastructure that is part of the Town Center. The City is not responsible for the repayment of CDA bonds.
    Link: http://www.hampton.gov/press_release/new_peninsula_town_center.html


    Sorry this post is so screwed up. Tried to fix, but can't. All the info is there.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  19. #19
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Hampton City property records also show a.34 acre parcel owned by the authority on Allainby Way. I think that is Mary's park, but I am not sure. More research needed.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    Me thinks much of the outside area is now public property.Â* There are Hampton parking meters on the new roads that areÂ*winding through "mall town".
    Parking meters are PTC owned and operated.
    Read...
    http://www.peninsulatowncenter.com/C...oundation.aspx

    Another spin by City Council and the mall, "Change for Charity Meter Program...Your parking meter change funds local charities."
    Well, kind of, read the fine print, some people believe what they think they heard, or read.

    "The donations from Change for Charity represent 100% of ticket proceeds and a percentage of meter revenues therefore based on total parking meter receipts at Peninsula Town Center."

    So sports fans, that is 100% of the fines, and an unknown/uposted percentage of the take from the meters... humm, wonder which is greater.

    I am taking Gilliland's advice, a response from Hampton City Council member Randy Gilliland, Daily Press, "Gilliland's response to complaints: " If you don't like it, don't shop there."


    He is not re-running, as I remember in the Daily Press, he doesn't like the egos he had to put up with.

    Anyone check the color of the street signs in the PTC. Most cities will use another color for private roads.

    My guess is this is all private. The roads/streets just dump you off in a parking lot, there are no city street signs.

    It is an arm pit with fleas at best.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Records show a larger (over 1/2 acre) property owned by the authority that appears to correspond to town square. Don't go there OCing and laugh at the rent a cops assertion that it is private propertyyet, more research is needed.




    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  22. #22
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    OK, so the streets are owned by the authority according to the Hampton City records, except I cant find a record for Allainby Way.

    There are two lots which appear to correspond to the parks which have no development upon them and which are also owned by the authority.

    Sure would like to have some legal beagles check my work before we have an open carry rally at the town center.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    A Community Development Authority is a device a city uses to divorce itself from a project. The city can give permission to issue bonds, in this case 90 million, biggest TIF ever in Virginia, and then promise future taxes to pay off the bonds. From what I can tell, only this tax money and that shoppers fee of 0.5% are being used to pay of that 90 million. The city does this because it thinks it is not responsible to pay off the bonds if this mall folds. The taxes coming of the PTC have a cap on it at 65.5 million. It is al in that terse reading of bullcrap at http://www.hampton.gov/press_release/cda_details.html


    some info on TIFS, in case one is coming to your neck of the woods..
    http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/arti..._financing.php

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_increment_financing
    http://www.vml.org/CONF/09ConfRoanok...aFinancing.pdf

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The GIS Map confirms that 5151 Kilgore Ave is the Town Center (Park) and that 3131 Allainby Way is Marys Park.

    Hampton City Property records show that both properties are owned by the Peninsula Town Center Community Development Authority.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The city web site confirms that the CDA is a political subdivision.:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebra te
    Read bullet5 below!

    Roads, sidewalks, steetscape and parking facilities are also paid for by the CDA, so no worries about parking while open carrying either, read the CDA financed section.:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:c elebrate



    Community Development Authority
    March 3, 2006
    Community Development Authority
    • Created by ordinance of City Council upon Petition by owner of at least 51% of land within CDA (Hampton Mall Associates)

    • CDA has authority to issue bonds to finance the public infrastructure that is part of the Town Center

    • Repayment of CDA bonds will be made through special ad valorem taxes, a special assessment on the real property in the CDA and a pledge by the City of certain incremental tax revenues as described below
    • CDA Board consists of 5 members appointed by the City Council; one of which will be the City Manager or his designee

    • City Manager or his designee will be designated as the "CDA Representative" - responsible for signing requisitions for bond proceeds to finance the infrastructure projects and other approvals required of CDA

    • CDA is a separate political subdivision/City is not responsible for repayment of CDA bonds

    • Approximately 76 acres to be included in CDA
    CDA-Financed Infrastructure
    • Acquisition of fee and/or leasehold interests or rights-of-way for public improvements (consists of approximately 16 acres)

    • Purchase price for acquisition of interests in land to be paid by CDA will be based on MAI appraisal obtained by the City (but not to exceed $27,600,000)

    • The City will pay the cost of demolition of flyover and costs of related improvements to Coliseum Drive

    • Developer will agree to pay costs of improvements to intersection of Commerce and Mercury Boulevards, including signalization; but to the extent there are bonds proceeds not needed for the other improvements described above the CDA will use such bond proceeds for these improvements

    • Roads, sidewalks, streetscaping, parks

    • Utility improvements

    • Parking facilities

    • CDA-financed infrastructure will be owned by CDA

    • CDA's share of the cost of infrastructure will be limited to $65,502,700

    • To the extent CDA bond proceeds are insufficient to complete infrastructure, developer will covenant to pay costs to complete public improvements contemplated by initial CDA financing

    • Developer will manage and maintain public infrastructure pursuant to management contracts with CDA that qualify under IRS rules for management of property financed with tax-exempt bonds
    Security for CDA Bonds; Revenue Sources
    • City will not be responsible for repayment of bonds

    • Repayment of bonds will be provided by four revenue sources: Special Assessment (consisting of Retail Portion and Back-up Assessment); Special Ad Valorem Tax; and certain Incremental Tax Revenues

    • Special Assessment will be levied on all taxable property in the CDA in an amount sufficient to pay debt service, administrative expenses and a $50,000 annual contribution to the CDA repair and replacement fund for major repairs (the "Special Assessment")

    • Retail Portion: A portion of the Special Assessment (the "Retail Portion") will be collected based on retail sales equal to 1/2 of 1% per $1 of sales

    • The Special Assessment, including the Retail Portion, will constitute a tax lien on the property assessed

    • The landowners' obligations under the Special Assessment will be offset by the amount collected as a Retail Portion, and by an ad valorem special tax and a pledge of certain incremental tax revenues, as each is described below

    • Back-up Assessment: To the extent the Retail Portion, the special ad valorem real estate tax and the incremental revenues are not sufficient to pay debt service, administrative costs and $50,000 annual reserve contribution, the remaining amount of the Special Assessment (the "Back-up Assessment") will be collected

    • Special Ad Valorem Tax: The City will levy a special ad valorem real estate tax in the amount of $0.25 per $100 value

    • Incremental Tax Revenues: The City will agree to pay, subject to annual appropriation, the incremental tax revenues generated within the CDA district over a fixed amount, which amount will be based on an agreed upon base year

    • Base year for calculating sales tax increment will be calendar year 2004

    • Base year for calculating real estate tax will be fiscal year 2006

    • The following incremental tax revenues will be paid to the CDA subject to appropriation by City Council
      • 100% incremental real estate taxes

      • 50% incremental sales tax (local 1% only)

      • 25% incremental meals tax (pledge of 25% of meals tax will not reduce the 2% meals tax pledge supporting the convention center)

      • 50% incremental amusement tax


    • None of the incremental personal property tax or BPOL tax will be paid to CDA

    • After the CDA bonds are paid in full or defeased, all incremental taxes will belong to the City

    • Under VA law, the City Council is precluded from making any payments to cover CDA debt service except those expressly authorized in the ordinance creating the CDA; such ordinance will limit the City's payments to the tax increment amount described above

    • Retail Portion, Incremental Tax Revenues and Special Ad Valorem Tax will be collected in advance of debt service payment dates in order to allow for calculation and collection of amounts due under Back-up Assessment

    • Method of collection of Retail Portion will be determined by agreement among the City, the Developer and the CDA; City will not be required to pay any costs of collection

    • Developer will be reimbursed for payments of Back-up Assessment in subsequent years from any surplus; surplus is calculated as excess of Retail Portion, CDA share of incremental tax revenues and special ad valorem taxes available in any year over the debt service, administrative expenses and $50,000 contribution due in such year

    • Any reimbursements will be paid only from incremental tax revenues and will be paid by the City, subject to appropriation, to the Industrial Development Authority or other entity authorized to make grants to the Developer

    • Any surplus remaining after reimbursement to developer for Back-up Assessment paid by developer will be paid to the City


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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