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Thread: Handgun in vehicle

  1. #1
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    I have a friend who is starting school in New York in a few months. He lives in Mass.

    He's wondering if he can have a handgun in his car for when he travels from MY to Mass.

    Not carrying, just in the car.


    Thanks for any answers.

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    Dustin wrote:
    I have a friend who is starting school in New York in a few months. He lives in Mass.

    He's wondering if he can have a handgun in his car for when he travels from MY to Mass.

    Not carrying, just in the car.


    Thanks for any answers.
    Presume that "MY" was a typo and that you meant NY to Mass.

    How is it that he does/will legally possess a gun in NY?

    "No person may carry, possess or transport a handgun in or through the state unless he has a valid New York license. New York does not issue licenses to non-residents nor does it recognize licenses issued by other states."
    http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm

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    No way.

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    Correct I meant from Mass to NY and back.

    Eitherway if they don't issue to non-residents then I get it.

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    Federal Law

    Federal law prohibits prosecution if you carry the gun unloaded in a separate locked compartment or a locked box. Google it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DustoneGT View Post
    Federal law prohibits prosecution if you carry the gun unloaded in a separate locked compartment or a locked box. Google it.
    This is only if you are transiting through the state. As the individual in question is attending school in NYS, while not a resident, they can be considered to reside here and would be subject to state law which prohibits having a handgun without a permit.

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    While Federal Law may protect you from being convicted of any crime, it will not deter the NY state cops from arresting you and confiscating your weapon(s) and impounding your vehicle.
    Last edited by MadMax; 06-12-2011 at 03:41 PM.

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    Federal law provides for protections while traveling through a state. You must be able to legally posses at your destination. As the destination is New York, you are not going through the state and have a destination where you are not legally able to possess. Federal law would come into play if, for example, this person was driving from his home in Mass through NY to PA.

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    nys law also forbids handguns on the property of any learning institutuion. the gun could only pass through nys, and of course the ammo and gun would have to be secured seperatly from each other. out of hands reach of each other. NYS also considers the clip to be part of the gun so all ammo must be removed from the clips, not just the clips removed from the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmanci View Post
    NYS also considers the clip to be part of the gun so all ammo must be removed from the clips, not just the clips removed from the gun.
    Magazine...and where does it say that?

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    A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by a properly licensed individual. (Loaded means a firearm with ammunition loaded in a magazine or chamber or any firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm.) Possession of any loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal.

    NON-RESIDENTS It is unlawful for any person to carry, possess or transport a handgun in or through the state unless he has a valid New York license. (A provision of Federal law provides a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel if the person is traveling from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport a firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm and the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console).

    A member or coach of an accredited college or university target pistol team may transport a handgun into or through New York to participate in a collegiate, Olympic or target pistol shooting competition provided that the handgun is unloaded and carried in a locked carrying case and the ammunition is carried in a separate locked container.

    SOURCES: New York Consolidated Laws, Articles 265 and 400 of the Penal Law, Article 11 0901, 11-0929 and 11-0931 of the Environmental Conservation Code; Article 26, Sections 396ee and 396; Article 39-B and Article 39-DD of the General Business Code
    Last edited by ronmanci; 01-24-2011 at 09:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmanci View Post
    A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by a properly licensed individual. (Loaded means a firearm with ammunition loaded in a magazine or chamber or any firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm.) Possession of any loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal.
    This contradicts what you said above...and contradicts itself. You need to cite to the actual penal law.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 11:17 AM.

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    how is that? it states a weapon is considered loaded with ammo in a magazine, doesn't it?

    this is the actual penal or DEC law

    I'll get the book out if i have to but here is a link:
    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf
    Last edited by ronmanci; 01-24-2011 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmanci View Post
    how is that? it states a weapon is considered loaded with ammo in a magazine, doesn't it?

    this is the actual penal or DEC law

    I'll get the book out if i have to but here is a link:
    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

    For purposes of the possessory offenses, 265.xx, the definition of "loaded" is as below:
    265.00 (15) - "Loaded firearm" means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.
    265.20 (3) exempts those licensed under 400.00 except for 265.01 (3) (Possession on school grounds).
    265.20 (12) applies only to the parties listed, under the circumstances delineated in the statute.
    Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person who is a member or
    coach of an accredited college or university target pistol team while
    transporting the pistol or revolver into or through New York state to
    participate in a collegiate, olympic or target pistol shooting
    competition under the auspices of or approved by the national rifle
    association, provided such pistol or revolver is unloaded and carried in
    a locked carrying case and the ammunition therefor is carried in a
    separate locked container.
    Given that, it seems that those unlicensed non-residents who are neither members or coaches of an accredited team traveling to a sanctioned match may only transport their handguns through the state in accordance with federal transport laws while in possession of ammunition for that weapon without possessing a loaded weapon for purposes of the possessory offenses. All other transport statutes merely say, "unloaded in a locked, opaque container" and make no mention of exemption for the ammunition that would override the definition of "loaded."

    The question is...where is the federal standard on this?
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 09:27 PM.

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    well all i can say is; if i pulled you over, and you were an out of state resident travelling with a loaded clip in your car, seperate from the weapon or not, you would be charged. I am obligated to make an arrest in that situation. A clip is part of the gun not part of the ammo. Common sense there.....

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    Another way of reading this

    CARRY A license to possess a handgun serves also as a license
    to carry unless restricted.

    A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by
    a properly licensed individual. (Loaded means a firearm
    with ammunition loaded in magazine
    or chamber or any
    firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time
    possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to
    discharge such a firearm
    .) Possession of any loaded rifle or
    shotgun in a vehicle is illegal.

    NON-RESIDENTS It is unlawful for any person to carry, possess or
    transport a handgun in or through the state unless he
    has a valid New York license. (A provision of federal law provides a defense
    to state or local laws which would
    prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate
    travel if the person is traveling from any place where he
    may lawfully possess and transport a firearm to any other
    place where he may lawfully possess and transport such
    firearm and the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In
    vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in
    a locked container other than the glove compartment or
    console).
    A member or coach of an accredited college or
    university target pistol team may transport a handgun
    into or through New York to participate in a collegiate,
    Olympic or target pistol shooting competition provided
    that the handgun is unloaded and carried in a locked
    carrying case and the ammunition is carried in a separate
    locked container.

    I was just wondering - would the use of a definition found in a State Law be appropriate to use to define something in Federal Law. When NY law allows for "A Provision of Federal Law" as a defense to NY State or Local law. ( In my Humble opinion I personally don't think a definition found in State law would be appropriate to be used or applied to a Federal Law ) Federal law doesn't speak to "ammunition loaded in magazine" or "possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm"

    I'm not a Lawyer and was just wondering what others think about this subject?

    http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=59
    FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS
    A provision of the federal law known as the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA, protects those who are transporting firearms for lawful purposes from local restrictions which would otherwise prohibit passage.

    Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered. FOPA also seems to provide for necessary stops, like gasoline and rest.

    Travelers should be aware that some state and local governments treat this federal provision as an “affirmative defense” that may only be raised after an arrest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    CARRY A license to possess a handgun serves also as a license
    to carry unless restricted.

    A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by
    a properly licensed individual. (Loaded means a firearm
    with ammunition loaded in magazine
    or chamber or any
    firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time
    possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to
    discharge such a firearm
    .) Possession of any loaded rifle or
    shotgun in a vehicle is illegal.

    NON-RESIDENTS It is unlawful for any person to carry, possess or
    transport a handgun in or through the state unless he
    has a valid New York license. (A provision of federal law provides a defense
    to state or local laws which would
    prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate
    travel if the person is traveling from any place where he
    may lawfully possess and transport a firearm to any other
    place where he may lawfully possess and transport such
    firearm and the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In
    vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in
    a locked container other than the glove compartment or
    console).
    A member or coach of an accredited college or
    university target pistol team may transport a handgun
    into or through New York to participate in a collegiate,
    Olympic or target pistol shooting competition provided
    that the handgun is unloaded and carried in a locked
    carrying case and the ammunition is carried in a separate
    locked container.

    I was just wondering - would the use of a definition found in a State Law be appropriate to use to define something in Federal Law. When NY law allows for "A Provision of Federal Law" as a defense to NY State or Local law. ( In my Humble opinion I personally don't think a definition found in State law would be appropriate to be used or applied to a Federal Law ) Federal law doesn't speak to "ammunition loaded in magazine" or "possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm"

    I'm not a Lawyer and was just wondering what others think about this subject?

    http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=59
    FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS
    A provision of the federal law known as the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA, protects those who are transporting firearms for lawful purposes from local restrictions which would otherwise prohibit passage.

    Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered. FOPA also seems to provide for necessary stops, like gasoline and rest.

    Travelers should be aware that some state and local governments treat this federal provision as an “affirmative defense” that may only be raised after an arrest.
    FOPA applies to firearms and ammunition (but not other accessories like large capacity magazines, for example). FOPA is predicated upon a legal point of origin and a legal destination. Unless noted as a negative element of a crime in the state's statute (negating either a physical or mental element of the offense) it will operate as an affirmative defense. FOPA is at odds with the provisions of the NYS Penal Law and is meant to preempt them, but again, applies only in situations as indicated.

    In general, statutes provide their own definitions and one is not applicable to the other in any way. The state could substitute the word banana for assault weapon and it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

    Here is FOPA:
    TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 44, § 926A
    Interstate transportation of firearms
    Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
    The magazine issue would then depend on whatever the definition of "unloaded" is within the federal law.

    An out of state resident with ammunition for their legally owned handgun must have a legal origin and destination, if not, the state law applies and they have a loaded "firearm" within the terms of state law which has nothing to do with magazines or locked containers for the ammunition etc.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 04:12 PM.

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    Thanks for the response emsjeep

    I retire this year and plan on living the nomad life style for awhile.

    I have a CCW for MS and plan on getting a non-resident FL license to increase 7 more states which would honor my CCW's.

    For those states not honoring my CCW's, I had planned on separating my 1911 from the ammo using two auto safes. They of course will be out of reach and locked up. I just had never heard the magazine was considered part of the gun before. I also never heard the rounds being required to be pulled from the magazine. Guess I'm glad I don't live in NY.

    If they don't want my money sightseeing then I'll just blow thru and spend my pension money in the 34 states which do honor my CCW's. No hard feelings just easier on me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    I retire this year and plan on living the nomad life style for awhile.

    I have a CCW for MS and plan on getting a non-resident FL license to increase 7 more states which would honor my CCW's.

    For those states not honoring my CCW's, I had planned on separating my 1911 from the ammo using two auto safes. They of course will be out of reach and locked up. I just had never heard the magazine was considered part of the gun before. I also never heard the rounds being required to be pulled from the magazine. Guess I'm glad I don't live in NY.

    If they don't want my money sightseeing then I'll just blow thru and spend my pension money in the 34 states which do honor my CCW's. No hard feelings just easier on me.

    Chap
    I'm not really sure where the "magazine is part of the gun" came from and I'm not sure that it is relevant. I suspect it comes from some portion of the DEC code that requires long guns to be unloaded in both chamber and magazine. Thereby rifles and shotguns having fixed magazines cannot be loaded at all, as for a loaded detached magazine stored in a separate container from the long gun it is for...I seem to recall that that is OK. I have to dig into that more though, I'm not 100% on any of that.

    11-0931 (2):
    No firearm or crossbow except a pistol or revolver shall be
    carried or possessed in or on a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded, for
    a firearm in both the chamber and the magazine.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 06:51 PM.

  20. #20
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    I was commenting on ronmanci earlier post

    Quote Originally Posted by ronmanci View Post
    nys law also forbids handguns on the property of any learning institutuion. the gun could only pass through nys, and of course the ammo and gun would have to be secured seperatly from each other. out of hands reach of each other. NYS also considers the clip to be part of the gun so all ammo must be removed from the clips, not just the clips removed from the gun.
    I haven't read it in a law just his post. I plan on traveling using the FOPA thru states which don't honor my CCW's.

    ronmanci posted "well all i can say is; if i pulled you over, and you were an out of state resident travelling with a loaded clip in your car, seperate from the weapon or not, you would be charged. I am obligated to make an arrest in that situation. A clip is part of the gun not part of the ammo. Common sense there....."

    I think he meant magazine but I get the gist. I wasn't sure if he is an active NY cop or not so I thought I'd ask to get clarification on if most LEO agree with ronmaci's opinion.

    Chap
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  21. #21
    Regular Member ronmanci's Avatar
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    Here is another link. Read the last paragraph of the "carry" section.

    http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/nys-gun-laws/

  22. #22
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    Yep it's there (really dark website)

    It's also on the NRA website - http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

    Guess an LEO could actually by the letter of the law upon finding a loaded locked up magazine entirely separate from a locked up weapon charge someone. Resulting in the non-resident to be held up, be detained & lawyer up.

    I would hope a law abiding citizen who truly is passing thru the state would win if this was ever brought to court. Does anyone know if LEO's are actually charging people for this?

    I know a LEO would need clear grounds to search my vehicle, NY appears to be a state where you aren't required to tell if you have a weapon in the vehicle. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf. Just would suck to be in an accident, the LEO becomes aware of the safes and weapons. (like if the vehicle has to be towed.) (worse case scenario) Your vehicle is wrecked and they drop weapons charges to boot.....................

    It's a shame these inconsistence laws aren't weeded out and corrected.

    Chap
    Kimber Ultra Carry II .45 ACP, 3" barrel 1911 with a Mitch Rosen holster

    New additions to the family -
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    Ruger LCP .380 05FEB11

  23. #23
    Regular Member ronmanci's Avatar
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    If the officer directly asks you if you have any weapons in the car, and you say yes, is the only real way an officer would know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmanci View Post
    Here is another link. Read the last paragraph of the "carry" section.

    http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/nys-gun-laws/
    The wording in that is a synthesis of the PL and the DEC code.

    The PL says:
    265.00 (15) - "Loaded firearm" means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.
    and the DEC says:
    § 11-0931 (2)
    No firearm or crossbow except a pistol or revolver shall be
    carried or possessed in or on a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded, for
    a firearm in both the chamber and the magazine.
    Then some moron at NRA unceremoniously mashes the two ideas together and comes up with what you posted:
    A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by a properly licensed individual. (Loaded means a firearm with ammunition loaded in magazine or chamber or any firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm.) Possession of any loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal.
    Anyway, the distinction for "loaded" within the PL encompasses the mere possession of loose rounds, and if you are an out of stater you fall subject to whatever that entails unless you are covered by FOPA. As to whether there is a distinction between ammunition locked away separately in a box vs a magazine, I can't say at this point. If there is, it would be in the case law interpreting FOPA. The other ambiguity involves a removable rifle or shotgun magazine that is separated from the otherwise legally transported long gun and whether that constitutes "loaded in magazine." I see no case law on point to the latter question. As far as I can tell, no case has been reported (and thus there are no precedential rulings) in which someone was convicted of the DEC violation for having anything but a loaded weapon in the common understanding, rounds in the chamber or in a fixed magazine or in a detachable magazine that was attached at the time.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 08:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    It's also on the NRA website - http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

    Guess an LEO could actually by the letter of the law upon finding a loaded locked up magazine entirely separate from a locked up weapon charge someone. Resulting in the non-resident to be held up, be detained & lawyer up.

    I would hope a law abiding citizen who truly is passing thru the state would win if this was ever brought to court. Does anyone know if LEO's are actually charging people for this?

    I know a LEO would need clear grounds to search my vehicle, NY appears to be a state where you aren't required to tell if you have a weapon in the vehicle. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf. Just would suck to be in an accident, the LEO becomes aware of the safes and weapons. (like if the vehicle has to be towed.) (worse case scenario) Your vehicle is wrecked and they drop weapons charges to boot.....................

    It's a shame these inconsistence laws aren't weeded out and corrected.

    Chap
    That is NOT the "Law," that is someone's interpretation of the law, nothing more. See my post above.

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