Here is another link. Read the last paragraph of the "carry" section.
http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/nys-gun-laws/
http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/nys-gun-laws/
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Handgun in vehicle
- Thread starter Dustin
- Start date
Chap
Regular Member
Yep it's there (really dark website)
It's also on the NRA website - http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf
Guess an LEO could actually by the letter of the law upon finding a loaded locked up magazine entirely separate from a locked up weapon charge someone. Resulting in the non-resident to be held up, be detained & lawyer up.
I would hope a law abiding citizen who truly is passing thru the state would win if this was ever brought to court. Does anyone know if LEO's are actually charging people for this?
I know a LEO would need clear grounds to search my vehicle, NY appears to be a state where you aren't required to tell if you have a weapon in the vehicle. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf. Just would suck to be in an accident, the LEO becomes aware of the safes and weapons. (like if the vehicle has to be towed.) (worse case scenario) Your vehicle is wrecked and they drop weapons charges to boot.....................
It's a shame these inconsistence laws aren't weeded out and corrected.
Chap
It's also on the NRA website - http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf
Guess an LEO could actually by the letter of the law upon finding a loaded locked up magazine entirely separate from a locked up weapon charge someone. Resulting in the non-resident to be held up, be detained & lawyer up.
I would hope a law abiding citizen who truly is passing thru the state would win if this was ever brought to court. Does anyone know if LEO's are actually charging people for this?
I know a LEO would need clear grounds to search my vehicle, NY appears to be a state where you aren't required to tell if you have a weapon in the vehicle. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf. Just would suck to be in an accident, the LEO becomes aware of the safes and weapons. (like if the vehicle has to be towed.) (worse case scenario) Your vehicle is wrecked and they drop weapons charges to boot.....................
It's a shame these inconsistence laws aren't weeded out and corrected.
Chap
The wording in that is a synthesis of the PL and the DEC code.
The PL says:
and the DEC says:
Then some moron at NRA unceremoniously mashes the two ideas together and comes up with what you posted:
Anyway, the distinction for "loaded" within the PL encompasses the mere possession of loose rounds, and if you are an out of stater you fall subject to whatever that entails unless you are covered by FOPA. As to whether there is a distinction between ammunition locked away separately in a box vs a magazine, I can't say at this point. If there is, it would be in the case law interpreting FOPA. The other ambiguity involves a removable rifle or shotgun magazine that is separated from the otherwise legally transported long gun and whether that constitutes "loaded in magazine." I see no case law on point to the latter question. As far as I can tell, no case has been reported (and thus there are no precedential rulings) in which someone was convicted of the DEC violation for having anything but a loaded weapon in the common understanding, rounds in the chamber or in a fixed magazine or in a detachable magazine that was attached at the time.
Last edited:
That is NOT the "Law," that is someone's interpretation of the law, nothing more. See my post above.
give it a try and find out how well you make out.....
Your view is also an interpretation. The law in general, is nothing more than interpretations. Thats why we have jury's. And you are only quoting the bits and pieces of the statutes that promote your view. what make you smarter than the NRA? You only quoted certain degrees of the offences earlier. It was 2nd degree i think you quoted? But i cant hold that against you because ive been around long enough to know that how good attorneys do things. You have your view and i have my job to do. Fortunately, that keeps us both working.
Your view is also an interpretation. The law in general, is nothing more than interpretations. Thats why we have jury's. And you are only quoting the bits and pieces of the statutes that promote your view. what make you smarter than the NRA? You only quoted certain degrees of the offences earlier. It was 2nd degree i think you quoted? But i cant hold that against you because ive been around long enough to know that how good attorneys do things. You have your view and i have my job to do. Fortunately, that keeps us both working.
Chap
Regular Member
Ok, thanks emsjeep
I finally figured out what PL means.
Penal Law
Article 265. Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapon
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5/atf-p-5300-5-new_york.pdf
DEC means
Environmental Conservation Law § 11-0931 Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms.
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/L...+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=21315864&TARGET=VIEW
Thanks emsjeep,
Chap
I finally figured out what PL means.
Penal Law
Article 265. Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapon
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5/atf-p-5300-5-new_york.pdf
DEC means
Environmental Conservation Law § 11-0931 Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms.
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/L...+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=21315864&TARGET=VIEW
Thanks emsjeep,
Chap
No, that's not why we have juries. The jury decides matters of fact, judges manage matters of law. This would be the whole concept behind summary judgements and jury instructions....
I don't have to be smarter than anyone at the NRA to post the law they purport to interpret and point out that the language they use was not present in the applicable statutes or was, at best, synthesized from somewhere else. The evidence speaks for itself.
I threw out a few examples of possible charges:
Reckless Endangerment 2
Menacing 3
Harassment 2
Disorderly Conduct
I'll fill in the gaps but it is completely irrelevant:
RE 1 (120.25) - requires "depraved indifference" which creates a grave risk of death.
-Never in a million years are you going to be able to characterize someone who is simply open carrying as having done that...you would have to be on crack to try.
Menacing 2 (120.14) - has a similar obstacle of intent that you would never prove; additionally, it qualifies the fear as "reasonable"- "intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death"
Menacing 1 is for repeat offenders.
Harassment 1 requires repeated acts and is largely irrelevant.
I fail to see your point and I don't know what we are arguing about at this point. A loaded weapon is just as loaded if the rounds were sitting on the floor instead of in a magazine. The question is whether FOPA requires the magazines to be empty for transport, and no one has clarified that yet....do you know? I haven't looked yet.
I don't know everything either, I think the only point here is that your initial definition was correct, but too narrow...
I would like to know 2 things:
1) Does FOPA require that the ammunition stored separately not be in magazines and does it preempt state laws that prohibit such conduct; and
2) Do the DEC regulations pertain only to magazines attached to the weapon or to any magazine located in or on the vehicle?
If my research doesn't pan out maybe you can go arrest someone for us and see how it filters through the courts...
I don't know everything either, I think the only point here is that your initial definition was correct, but too narrow...
I would like to know 2 things:
1) Does FOPA require that the ammunition stored separately not be in magazines and does it preempt state laws that prohibit such conduct; and
2) Do the DEC regulations pertain only to magazines attached to the weapon or to any magazine located in or on the vehicle?
If my research doesn't pan out maybe you can go arrest someone for us and see how it filters through the courts...
send someone my way, i'd be glad to help out.
Chap
Regular Member
I found this
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921
§ 921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
(Guess this is where NY gets a Magazine being defined as a “Handgun”. Kind of a stretch for a normal person ie: Me to see a magazine with ammunition in it as being a loaded handgun)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921
§ 921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
(Guess this is where NY gets a Magazine being defined as a “Handgun”. Kind of a stretch for a normal person ie: Me to see a magazine with ammunition in it as being a loaded handgun)
+1 !!!
emsjeep, please feel free to send a test case into NY, and see how the law is actually interpreted, and justice meted out.
May I suggest either Westchester County, or any of the 5 Boroughs. Rockland County also...they have a gun-hating judge there too.
A magazine with ammunition is not a "handgun;" a handgun in one box and a box of ammunition in another box is a "loaded handgun."
New York requires a license to purchase a handgun but anyone can purchase a compliant magazine. You cannot assemble a magazine into a handgun without a few other essential parts, additionally, you don't even need a detachable magazine to fire [most] handguns and the operability requirement can be fulfilled by successfully firing one shot.
Last edited:
I woud hesitate to use the word, "justice" when discussing things like this.
The concept of the magazine being a part of the gun is something that really comes out of California and is utilized in managing their obscure CC and OC laws. For most other purposes a firearm is the functional receiver of the weapon. I don't know of any other states that have addressed the magazine as being part of the firearm, and I don't see why they would have cause to. FOPA is an accessibility issue, as in time to access is at issue, not time to operability, necessarily. A conventional definition of unloaded will apply int he absence of an overriding definition provided by the legislative body and that definition would probably mean that as long as no round is in the chamber and no loaded magazine inserted, the firearm is unloaded. In any event, I see no authority either way...so unless someone knows of some definition that is mentioned in a case somewhere, I'm at a loss. FOPA issues don't seem to be tried very often, my searches yielded only a single NY case that mentioned it and a few from NJ.
The issue may be that any cases that there have been were either not fully adjudicated or were unreported.
Last edited:
My best friend was a NYSP Academy Insrtuctor. He retired about three years. I asked him today if they still taught what I was taught 22 years ago. He said that recruits are told that the mag. is part of the gun. not a gun, but part of a gun. He said it has more to do with not storeing the ammo correctly when traveling. Its the issue of the ammo and the gun being secured seperatley. They are just as concerned if the mag. is being stored with the ammo, and it is empty. The key is , they must be seperate. If the mag. is loaded, they cannot be seperate. From that view it makes much more sense.
Lots of things make sense when you can make up anything you want...the point is, none of that is stated anywhere in the law that I have seen....
What if I load the mag, leave it at home, in a floor mounted fireproof combination safe, and drive away with the rest of the gun? If the magazine is part of the gun, then the ammunition is not separate from the gun. What if I have extra backstraps for my pistol and throw them in the same box as the ammunition, and put the functioning frame, slide and barrel of the pistol in another separate locked container? What if I take the barrel out of my pistol, slip a round into the chamber, tape it in place, put it in one locked container and put the slide and receiver in another locked container? What if I do this with a spare barrel?
If you characterize the situation the way that it was described to you (as the firearm being anything but the serial numbered receiver of the gun) the legitimate possibilities are numerous and indistinguishable on any level from the obviously insane ones. I see no basis in law for such a characterization...it may exist somewhere, I'm no expert in this, but views can still be wrong, no matter how widely held. I can attest to the insufficiency and oversimplification of many a police training program, one more would not surprise me. If you talk to your friend again, get a citation of law.
ETA: If it is NYS law we are talking about, the mag has no part in the equation; the ammunition could be tucked up my rectum and the gun would be considered just as loaded as if the loaded magazine was sitting in it.
Last edited:
You have quite the imagination. I think you may already have something up your rectum too. I prefer reality to all the "what if's" you have created in your own little mind. Smack yourself back into the real world.
I have heard seven different ways why you, your friend, Barrack Obama and Jesus Christ think that transporting loaded magazines in a separate locked container from a locked and contained firearm is a FOPA violation but you have yet to post one iota of actual law...you could be some 12 yr old behind a computer screen in Idaho for all I know, why am I supposed to take your word for anything? I see no training manuals, no memos, nothing to support or lend credibility to this interpretation other than your assertion that it is what is practiced...and not too often I have to assume because we have no reported evidence of anyone ever having been prosecuted for it no less you claiming to have been involved in an arrest.
I don't understand why you even attempted to discuss this if all you intended to contribute was, "This is what I was taught, this other guy agrees with me, if you have any questions, go screw yourself."
I have utilized every resource at my disposal to try to come up with a definitive answer and evidence to support YOUR claims, I have found nothing. You need to help me, and it needs to be better than, "This is what we do, take it or leave it," to be of any use... I have searchable access to every law in the country, every reported case dating back hundreds of years, I have scoured dozens of cases and executed dozens of searches for terms, statutory references, anything, and I see nothing related to the distinction that you and your friend draw. If you want to accomplish something, you're going to have to point me in the right direction here.
Last edited:
I dont state it, or advocate it. I live it, everyday of my life. And like I said once before, give it a try and lets see how it works out for ya. In your mind it's justified, and you can make all the arguements you want, because reality says, you could very well be charged. Any member of my agency would charge you. And I know your next question is "with what" while quoting a hundred statutes. Truth is, a real attorney knows how things work in the crime business. Anyone can be charged for anything at anytime. Erroneous, inflated, exaggerated or not, the onus is now on the defendent. Innocent until proven guilty is nothing more than a slogan. Even a snot nose 12 year old should know that. I don't suggest my opinion is any better than yours, I'm only pointing out that right now, here in NYS, that your way WILL get you arrested, and then you can spend the rest of your life fighting the politicians. You'll have plenty of time to do that while your sitting in Greenhaven. Everyone is a lawyer in prison. My way gets you safely to your destination without hassel or worry. Do you really have to decide?
Last edited: