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Thread: Madison PD and City Attorney show how to handle 911 calls about open carriers

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    What we now see happenning in Madison, WI, and other places in Wisconsin, a year after the AG Opinion declaring open cary to be legal is that most folks have moved down the learning curve and grown to accept open carry for what it is -lawful conduct. This has been the pattern in other states as well.

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    http://www.cityofmadison.com/inciden...l.cfm?id=10938




    Incident report for Case#2010-82237


    Released 04/05/2010 at 12:19 PM by PIO Joel DeSpain


    Incident Type
    Information

    Incident Date
    03/29/2010 - 12:09 PM

    Address
    418 State St. (Fair Trade Coffee)

    Details
    The owner of Fair Trade Coffee, 418 State Street, contacted Madison Police last week after several people carrying guns came into her shop on the night of March 28th. The proprietor said the weapons were clearly visible, and worn on hips. She was not completely comfortable with the situation and wondered what she could do. An Assistant City Attorney advised that she could post signs banning guns, and then ask anyone bringing a weapon into the store to leave.

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    Campaign Veteran logan's Avatar
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    They can go ahead and post signs banning guns so we know to go somewhere else with our money.
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    Mike wrote:
    The owner of Fair Trade Coffee, 418 State Street, contacted Madison Police last week after several people carrying guns came into her shop on the night of March 28th. The proprietor said the weapons were clearly visible, and worn on hips. She was not completely comfortable with the situation and wondered what she could do. An Assistant City Attorney advised that she could post signs banning guns, and then ask anyone bringing a weapon into the store to leave.
    I wish I could be the fly on the wall to see if she asks the next armed robber to leave.

  4. #4
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    Its a shame. They spent money at a store that doesn't support our rights. Had they known they would have gladly taken their business elsewhere.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    An Assistant City Attorney advised that she could post signs banning guns, and then ask anyone bringing a weapon into the store to leave.
    What's up with that? Since when to City Attorney's give legal advise for free? Can I call and get free legal advice?

    It is also apparent, from the "advice," that THIS attorney has an agenda. I think some of you Mad-Town residents should be screaming at you councilperson.

    The city attorney isn't there to give legal advice to anybody other than the city.

    Your tax dollars hard at work!

    As for the owner of the shop, I wonder if she knows Starbucks, along with most other businesses don't have a policy. We should try diplomacy before we "jump the gun."

    NO pun intended


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    As a Madison resident I will be contacting the city attorney's office to see if they are willing to offer us some free legal advice on how best to protect our constitutional right to bear arms in Madison.

    The Capital Times article identified the advice as coming from the District Attorney's office, not the city attorney. The police press release says it was the city attorney, which seems more likely to me.


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    Interesting....I didn't see anyone run away screaming when we were in there. Also, I don't remember seeing anyone who appeared to be a manager?????

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    When SC's legally armed citizen law was passed, the state Chamber of Commerce volunteered to misinform the public that they could avoid liability by putting up no-guns signs. Here the state has cut out the middle man Chamber.

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    I sent the following letter to the Madison City Attorney, cc'd every member of the city council. Got an "out of office 'til next week" response from the City Attorney's email. So stay tuned.

    Dear Mr. May:

    I found the statement contained in this report rather interesting:

    "The owner of Fair Trade Coffee, 418 State Street, contacted Madison Police last week after several people carrying guns came into her shop on the night of March 28th. The proprietor said the weapons were clearly visible, and worn on hips. She was not completely comfortable with the situation and wondered what she could do. An Assistant City Attorney advised that she could post signs banning guns, and then ask anyone bringing a weapon into the store to leave."

    When did the city attorney's office begin to dispense free legal advice to private individuals?

    Is it appropriate for your office to advise a private business how to implement a policy designed to discourage or restrict a lawful and constitutionally protected right?

    Ought not a business be directed to seek the advice of a private attorney for guidance on such a matter?

    Some have chosen to lawfully exercise the constitutionally protected right to bear arms within the City of Madison. Is there any free legal advice or aid that your office is willing to provide to us so that we may to continue to enjoy our civil liberties?

    A. Gold

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    completely not confortable- boy that one came out of the 80's. was she wearing pastels at the time?

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    IMHO, it's not free legal counsel if the city attorney is merely repeating an opinion that had already been released to the city. The city attorney may have already been asked by the city on what is a legal means to bar an armed patron from a business. If that is the case then not only should the city attorney tell the business owner the resulting legal opinion the attorney is (again, IMHO) legally bound to inform the business owner of the opinion.

    Any legal opinion of the city attorney should be published for public view and, unless overridden by legislation or judicial review, stands as the policy of the city. The question may not have been asked directly and the attorney was merely anticipating the question but the result is the same, the city had informed a citizen of the city policy.

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    IA_farmboy wrote:
    IMHO, it's not free legal counsel if the city attorney is merely repeating an opinion that had already been released to the city. The city attorney may have already been asked by the city on what is a legal means to bar an armed patron from a business. If that is the case then not only should the city attorney tell the business owner the resulting legal opinion the attorney is (again, IMHO) legally bound to inform the business owner of the opinion.

    Any legal opinion of the city attorney should be published for public view and, unless overridden by legislation or judicial review, stands as the policy of the city. The question may not have been asked directly and the attorney was merely anticipating the question but the result is the same, the city had informed a citizen of the city policy.
    Why would a city official ask the city attorney how a private business should conduct itself? That's not legal advice to the city, either.

  13. #13
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    IA_farmboy wrote:
    IMHO, it's not free legal counsel if the city attorney is merely repeating an opinion that had already been released to the city. The city attorney may have already been asked by the city on what is a legal means to bar an armed patron from a business. If that is the case then not only should the city attorney tell the business owner the resulting legal opinion the attorney is (again, IMHO) legally bound to inform the business owner of the opinion.

    Any legal opinion of the city attorney should be published for public view and, unless overridden by legislation or judicial review, stands as the policy of the city. The question may not have been asked directly and the attorney was merely anticipating the question but the result is the same, the city had informed a citizen of the city policy.
    The city has no policy regarding open carry, other than to follow applicable state law. What other choice does it have? Generally if a private citizen contacts a city attorney the city attorney politely replies something to the effect "I don't work for you, I work for the city. Find your legal opinions and advice somewhere else." But not in this case.
    A. Gold

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    bnhcomputing wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    An Assistant City Attorney advised that she could post signs banning guns, and then ask anyone bringing a weapon into the store to leave.
    What's up with that? Since when to City Attorney's give legal advise for free? Can I call and get free legal advice?

    It is also apparent, from the "advice," that THIS attorney has an agenda. I think some of you Mad-Town residents should be screaming at you councilperson.

    The city attorney isn't there to give legal advice to anybody other than the city.

    Your tax dollars hard at work!

    As for the owner of the shop, I wonder if she knows Starbucks, along with most other businesses don't have a policy. We should try diplomacy before we "jump the gun."

    NO pun intended
    I see what you are saying but I think the glass might be more half full here than empty.

    Compare this summary of events to last year when an open carrier was snatched off the streets on a disorderly conduct charge - there was probably much more discussed between the manager and the city police/atty than is in the summary - perhaps the manager asked for police to come and arrest the open carrier - and was told that's not what the police are for as no law was being reported broken.

    Perhaps the manager then asked the police to come out and enforce a store policy against gun carry - and maybe again was told, no, sorry, you have to make the first move to enforce private policies, we only enforce tresspass law if the subject refuses your command to leave.

    That's my thought on this - if folks want to find out what happenned on the 911 or other call topolice,then make an open records request for the phone call recording made by the store manage? that's what i did last year re the disorderly conduct arrest and the police gave me the audio file.

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    Mike wrote
    418 State St. (Fair Trade Coffee)

    Details
    The owner of Fair Trade Coffee...
    We could stoop to their level, and get the Owner's Address and post it publicly and publish it in the newspaper. We could write syndicated hate-speech 'journalism' about how much this person hates her customers and wants them to die in her gun-free murder-zone....

    But we're not that kind of people.... Well, some of us anyway. :-P
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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    ...make an open records request for the phone call recording made by the store manage[r]? [T]hat's what [I] did last year re the disorderly conduct arrest and the police gave me the audio file.
    This.

    Somebody in WI that cares about their Rights and how the State is conducting itself should Watch these Watchers.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  17. #17
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    Update: Stopped by the Madison PD today and requested a copy of the police report. It will take a few days to get it.

    Walked past Fair Trade Coffee. There were no signs posted regarding firearms.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Has anyone contacted the owners of the coffee shop and ask them what happened?

    Remember when Woodmans booted out an open carrier. Phone calls, letters and emails?

    I see a lot of supposition regarding what happened from a paragraph, but no actual dialog.



    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    Has anyone contacted the owners of the coffee shop and ask them what happened?

    Remember when Woodmans booted out an open carrier. Phone calls, letters and emails?

    I see a lot of supposition regarding what happened from a paragraph, but no actual dialog.


    What do you mean by "what happened?"

    I'm not convinced the owner was even present at the time, which is one of the reasons I've requested the police report. I remember seeing only two staff people present, a guy who was friendly and came over and chatted with us for a few minutes, and a young college-age woman who seemed unlikely to be the owner of two coffee shops (I believe the owner of Fair Trade Coffee also owns Michelangelo's Coffee a few blocks away.) Neither employed appeared nervous. I suspect the owner may have heard about us the following day and then called the PD. Hopefully the police report will answer this question.


    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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