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Thread: Booze: What would be considered too much?

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    Going off some of the things that have been said on Kingfish's thread, would you be breaking a law if someone broke into your home and you retaliated with your firearm? I think that the law would be on your side in general, but it really does make the fact that Colorado doesn't have an actual limit stated in the law all too obvious a blunder. I'm not a huge drinker, but I do enjoy a few libations from time to time and I have been wondering much the same things as others.

    Would a single beer, or even two, over dinner qualify as intoxicated? I'm not saying that drinking, even a little bit, while carrying is ever a good idea, but it is a curious question. What if you were at your buddies house for a weekly poker game (or whatever, I personally enjoy watching hockey with my friends, but yeah...) and you had a beer while you were there, you'd be under the limit and legally able to drive, but you would also intoxicated to some extent and that could lead to legal issues later on.

    One more question, is there really a difference, as was stated, between having a beer while carrying and having one with your gun next to you while you watch TV in your recliner?

    Anyway, I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss a little bit. I could be mistaken as well...

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    I think the thing toremember is that we're looking at different laws. Note that you're not within your rights to usedeadly force as "retaliation" for someone breaking into your home. If they've made unlawful entry, have alreadycomitted a crime while in yourdwellingand you expect themtomake any physical attack againstsomeonethere you can DEFEND yourself by any means up to and including deadly force. Someone who breaks in, sees you got nothin', andisturning to leave can't be shotin "retaliation".

    Now, none of that has anything to do with being drunk, sober, or buzzed. Whether or not you're prosecuted under the separate law about handling a firearm while under the influence, or evenillegal discharge of a firearm is a separate question. Anyone knowthe affirmative defense on those? Theoretically, you could get a DA who has nothing else to do but prosecute you for having a beer in your hand when someone breaks into your house and heads for you swinging until you legally defend yourself with a firearm. You'll be immune for the assault/manslaughter, but technically he can be a schmuck and try you for the beer.

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    It is true you are looking at two distinct different laws. Paramount is that in Colorado

    you are always justifien in protection of home and any other property you are in.

    The fact that yoy have been drinking may or may not enter into the situation.

    It is always best to check with local DA to see how they interperate the use of

    deadly force that may come into question.

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    i only feel comfortable with 1 drink, if i am carrying. but i'm a lightweight

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    if you do something stupid when drinking, then you've drank too much!

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    Well not so many of us are chiming in- although many of us do consume alcohol. What's the deal, everyone? Come on out of the woodwork and express yourself.

    Do you have a beer or two while carrying? I won't judge you- just want to get a feel for best practice.

    Anyone ever make the decision to "get drunk" and trigger lock up their pistol and give a sober friend the key? Kind of like the car keys trick- same concept.

    I can say with 100% confidence that I will never be consuming alcohol, OC or CC, in a public place.

    I can say with 100% confidence that I have "tasted" alcoholic beverages while OC. I'm a lightweight too; so even One beer per hour could land me just under or at a .04 or .05 At 140lbs, if the beer is 5.9% or similar; One beer an hour puts me at .07 or .08 because I honestly won't take the whole hour to consume the beer. I would, if I did, drink the beer in 20 minutes maybe. So that would increase the effects of the alcohol compared to just sipping or sampling.

    This is an issue that nobody can deny. I'm sure plenty of you Are comfortable with having a beer or a nice glass of wine at a restaurant; obviously while carrying. Does anyone feel judged and CC while drinking in public compared to OC?

    How does the discussion play into prescription pills and medical cannabis? We have had the medical cannabis discussion in our Colorado forum before; please refer to that thread. Nobody can deny the influence of prescription pills, alcohol, and cannabis.

    Literally Fox News 31 just reported a Live Report on "National Prescription Drug Abuse" and how it's on the rise in adults and children. Here's the epic comparison: The side effects of cannabis; hungry, happy, sleepy. But if you take 10 Aspirin, it'll be your last headache.

    Personally; I believe our system, as it stands- preemptively subjects citizens to punishment-

    I have Zero (0) problem with an individual drinking and driving; as I trust the individual to be responsible- just as I am trusted the same. If the driver wrecks- he wrecks- the judge will deal with it and sentence the punishment.

    But if he gets pulled over for a busted tail light; has otherwise driven perfectly; and is blowing over- use discretion!

    Same with drinking and carrying?

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    between 1996 and 2006 overdoses of SEDATIVES AND PAIN KILLERS has risen 65%

    Largest increase in abusers; middle aged women.

    Very pertinent information to the conversion.

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    Largest increase in abusers; middle aged women.

    Very pertinent information to the conversion.

    CS, you're really starting to confuse me here. Why is that pertinent information to the conversation? What doesthat demographiceven have to do with the conversation?

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are trying to make conversation. But I gotta be honest that some of these posts sound like you are posting ridiculous scenarios, trolling to feed an obsession with all things gun related. I'll indulge you, though.

    No, I don't consume much alcoholand I avoiddrugs. I hate even taking ibuprofen. Beyond how it interferes with my faculties, I just don't care to participate in the overdiagnosed, overmedicated society that leads to the prescription or OTC abuse you refer to. That's whether I'm carrying or not. Even if I'm not carrying, I need to be "on my game" if something happens. Whether it's an attack that I need to defend myself, an accident that I need to offer assistance, or some other emergency, I don't want my conciousness inebriated the slightest bit that I can't do what needs to be done.

    There's an OTC allergy medication that I HATE taking for that reason. It's my absolute last resort and I usually only need to go to it once every couple of years. My wife hates it too. I've passed out on the couch and she practically has to beat me with a broomstick to get me to go to my bed. It scares the hell out of her that the house could catch fire while I'm on that and she wouldn't be able to move me.

    Why would someone need to "make the decision to get drunk and lock up" their weapon? There can be only two reasons for someone doing that. They either think the DA is going to knock on their door and search the house to see if they're over the limit and there is access to firearms, or they don't trust themselves to not go to their safe and start playing yippie-ki-yai after they've had a few. Are you really asking if that's what people are doing?

    How does it play into other inebriants? The law looks at it the same way. If you get stoned off OTC allergy medicine and drive around town with your toes on the steering wheel, neither the LEO nor the judge is going to say, "Oh, it wasn't alcohol, so we won't charge you."

    If people are consuming to a point of inebriation, WTF is wrong with you? Would you talk on your cell phone at the range while trying to tighten your shot grouping? Then why carry? You won't be able to use the weapon if you need to with any assurance. It will be more of a danger to you than a sober attacker. And you won't be able to use judgement to rationally discern whether the use of the firearm is justified. Of all the good reasons to carry while sober and able to use your firearm, not a one applies while inebriated. I don't care about feeling judged. I'm more concerned with not DYING.

    I'm going to again give you the benefit of doubt that by "zero problem with a person drinking and driving" that you meant up to a limit. The problem with inebrients is that You. Have. Zero(0). Discretion. It's a biological fact. You can't hit your target with a firearm and you can't control a vehicle if your BAC is over a certain point.

    A few years ago, my wife and I were stopped at a light on 120th Ave. The speed limit there is 55 MPH. I turned to say something to my wife and the next thing I remember is pulling my face out of the airbag. We had been sandwiched between two SUVs when a drunk driver plowed into the back of us, most likely speeding and not even seeing the red light. I got out of the car to hear people tell me that the person that hit us took off. Reading the report later, herAIRBAGS DEPLOYED and she stilldrove off.During the aftermath about half an hour later, she actually returned and while barely able to stand said, "Um, I 'think' I was in this accident."

    She had a cow killer on the front of her car to protect her preciousLexus. The crumple zones in our small car did theirjob, as did the airbags and we made it throughwith little injury. But if we were in a less capable car? If we had been hit from the side? We would be DEAD.

    Your statement makes me blame you for our would-be death. That attitude is part of the problem. I can't not be angry at you for that statement. You trusted this woman to be responsible when she left the bar too drunk to drive. You trusted this woman to be responsible when you were her friends who didn't stop her from driving. You trusted this woman to be responsible when you overserved her at the bar. You trusted this woman to be responsible when she didn't see the light. You trusted this woman to be responsible when she drove away with deployed airbags. You trusted this woman to be responsible when she KILLED my wife and I. You trusted this woman to be responsible when she was another drunk driver and KILLED me being another father and husband to two daughters. You trusted this woman to be responsible when she was another driver who KILLED all four of us.

    And your answer to trusting this woman and causing so many deaths? "If she wrecks, the judge will punish her." Tell that to your mother, father, wife, sister, daughter, brother, son, when you are killed by a drunk driver. Tell it to yourself when any of them are killed. Tell them, "At least we trusted the driver's judgement and the judge will sentence him."

    Of COURSE it pre-emptively punishes people. Itpunishes them for engaging in reckless behaviour that pre-empts KILLING someone. We're not talking about handling a firearm in a safe, legal manner. We're talking about driving a 2000 pound bullet around. Would you instead do away with all speed limits and safety laws and only punish people when they have committed vehicular homicide?

    Up to a certain BAC, I agree with you. You know you're a lightweight. I'm only slightly bigger than you and I can rarely finish A drink. Not because it puts me out, I just lose my taste for it. But BAC isn't time or size based in a vacuum. It's metabolism based. At that BAC You. Do. Not. Have.Rational. Discretion. You are physically, biologically incapable of making that decision. Much less controlling a vehicle or your firearm.

    What sort of system do you propose? The one you describe is not logically possible. You can't take away the BAC level and then authorize a LEO to "use discretion if they're blowing over", because the BACwould not be therefor the driver to blow over. Would you raise the BAC? Do you really want to give a LEO so much power to use their personal discretion? Would you give them that power for any other law? What if they had that power of personal discretionto charge you with causing a public disturbance for legally OCing?

    The key thing is that the law regarding firearms and being under the influence doesn't specify a level like driving does. If this is a legal question, we're just mentally diddling until we look at actual cases of when it's been prosecuted.A better question may be "when do you feel you are to impaired to have access to your firearm". I would say as soon as I feel it, which with my metabolism is pretty darn little and pretty darn quick. Hence, I don't have even a sip if I'm carrying, nor do Itake allergy meds. Makes outdoor range trips in late summer problematic.

    To add another layer to this issue, I sleepwalk. Usually I just babble, but on occassion I've been in a "walking dream" where I couldn't make myself rationalize that my roommate/wife was who they were. One part of my brain knew who they were, but another was dreaming and thinking they were someone else. It gives me pause about having easy access to a bedside firearm. It runs in my family. My stepfather said to my mother that he used to think tales of somna-homicide were entirely fanciful until he married her. Now he sees it easily plausible.

    The way I describethose semi-lucid states reminds my wife of how she feels when she is in diabetic hypoglycemia. She says she can understand what is going on but she just can't make her brain do anything about it. I have seen her do things while hypo that would make a fall-down drunk seem downright rational. She keeps an emergency supply of candy in her car and her purse. It's purposefully her least favorite varieties to make sure she doesn't snack on it. What happens if she's somewhat hypo and is attacked? If she's carrying and fumbling for her firearm, it becomes more of a liability against her than a defense weapon.




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    mahkagari wrote:
    I think the thing toremember is that we're looking at different laws. Note that you're not within your rights to usedeadly force as "retaliation" for someone breaking into your home. If they've made unlawful entry, have alreadycomitted a crime while in yourdwellingand you expect themtomake any physical attack againstsomeonethere you can DEFEND yourself by any means up to and including deadly force. Someone who breaks in, sees you got nothin', andisturning to leave can't be shotin "retaliation".
    Wait a minute, you are trying to actually make sense here and that is not allowed. We all know that if someone breaks into your house then you have every right to shoot them dead as long as you do it before they get out of the door. This is to protect the person next door that they are going to burglarize immediately when they leave your home so retaliation is fine. :P

    I think too many people get too worked up over this subject and try to draw too many lines about anyone trying to cross. You have aglass of wine during dinner at a restaurant and someone pulls out in front of you on the way home. You hit them and a passenger in the car is killed. Is the level of alcohol in your bloodstream going to come into play during the investigation? Probably not as long as long as it was a clear case of them at fault. Turn the situation around and you pull out in front of someone. No matter what your BAC level is it is going to be brought up and someone is going to try and use it against you.

    Same way with a shooting. You and your buddies sit around playing poker and drinking. Someone gets mad about something and a gunfight breaks out. Dang right alcohol consumption is going to be a part of the investigation. Someone breaks in waving a gun pointing it at the whole group and 6 people each put one mag of round into the BG. Alcohol her is probably going to be brough up but its going to be tough to say it was a major factor.

    The point is that there is no absolute set limit on how much you can consume without it being part of the investigation and there are too many other variables to even try to say how much is too much. Just remember that when you shoot someone everything is probably going to be questioned even down to what type of underwear you had on. Be sure it is clean like your mother told you and that it didn't play a part in what happened by being too tight.



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    PT111 wrote:
    Just remember that when you shoot someone everything is probably going to be questioned even down to what type of underwear you had on. Be sure it is clean like your mother told you and that it didn't play a part in what happened by being too tight.
    *snort*

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    "...sound like you are posting ridiculous scenarios, trolling to feed an obsession with all things gun related. I'll indulge you, though."

    Thanks for indulging me.

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    You also have to remember that sometimes it may not matter how much you have had to drink or what actually happened. Several years ago the daughter of a very well know politician stepped out in front of a car in downtown Columbia, SC. The lady driving the car had been drinking but her BAC was no high enough to be charged with DUI. The girl stat was killed was never tested for BACbut from all reports (private of course) it would have well exceeded the limit if she had been driving. I knew that the lady driving the car was in trouble as soon as I heard who she had hit and sure enough she wound up sering some timenegligent homicide. Maybe if she had a BAC of zero she might hae avoided jail time but as soon as the needel moved she was done for . The same way with carrying a gun. Sometimes anything above zero is trouble.

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    I've been known to indulge in some adult libations while carrying. I feel that you can have a certain amount of alcohol in your system and still function just fine*. I know my limits, and stay well within them. It's not something I do often, but on occasion I feel like having a beer with my burger. Putting one (two at the most) on top of a big greasy meal is not going to have a significant affect on my ability to use my sidearm. I think the most I've ever had was about four BLs, and that was at my folks place where the biggest reason for carrying was to make sure I could plink at a moments notice. It was still nowhere close to enough to affect me. I don't really worry much about what people will say if I have alcohol in me if I have to shoot someone. Just shooting someone is enough to get people to think bad of you.

    *I am aware that any amount alcohol can have an affect, but at some point it's going to be small enough to be negligible. I know from personal experience that my surroundings and general well-being have more of an affect on me than a beer.

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    FogRider wrote:
    *I am aware that any amount alcohol can have an affect, but at some point it's going to be small enough to be negligible. I know from personal experience that my surroundings and general well-being have more of an affect on me than a beer.
    I'll agree with that. I know on more than one occasion I've gotten two wrapped up in laughing and talking with my friends and lose track of my surroundings.

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    The official rule here in Colorado is .04% while carrying any firearm. Look at the State Patrol dude who got stopped for being drunk. Not only was he charged for DUI but also another charge because he had his duty weapon on him. If you are more than .04% and in possesion of a firearm, it can be an unpleasant ride to the pokie, along with the loss of your firearm. It also does not matter where you are. Even in your own home!. If something should happen and the local LEO's end up at your house and you have a firearm and youblow morethan .04 you may need a lawyer....and a bondsman...

    I agree with several of the comments, I don't drink at al if I am carrying, no questions asked. Sorry, won't bite on all that other stuff, too complicated...

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    ColoradoFlyer wrote:
    The official rule here in Colorado is .04% while carrying any firearm. Look at the State Patrol dude who got stopped for being drunk. Not only was he charged for DUI but also another charge because he had his duty weapon on him. If you are more than .04% and in possesion of a firearm, it can be an unpleasant ride to the pokie, along with the loss of your firearm. It also does not matter where you are. Even in your own home!. If something should happen and the local LEO's end up at your house and you have a firearm and youblow morethan .04 you may need a lawyer....and a bondsman...

    I agree with several of the comments, I don't drink at al if I am carrying, no questions asked. Sorry, won't bite on all that other stuff, too complicated...
    Could you cite where you got the .04 from? I've looked and haven't been able to find anything like that. As for the rest, the complications are what make it fun to talk about! lol.

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    ColoradoFlyer wrote:
    The official rule here in Colorado is .04% while carrying any firearm. Look at the State Patrol dude who got stopped for being drunk. Not only was he charged for DUI but also another charge because he had his duty weapon on him. If you are more than .04% and in possesion of a firearm, it can be an unpleasant ride to the pokie, along with the loss of your firearm. It also does not matter where you are. Even in your own home!. If something should happen and the local LEO's end up at your house and you have a firearm and youblow morethan .04 you may need a lawyer....and a bondsman...

    I agree with several of the comments, I don't drink at al if I am carrying, no questions asked. Sorry, won't bite on all that other stuff, too complicated...
    This is relevant to citing the laws about the .04%

    According to the article; Colorado places two limits on BAC while operating a motor vehicle. The limit is .05% and .08%. I believe .04% and under is 100% viable in this situation. I think the DWAI limit of (.05%) is the Bottom of the barrel for any alcohol related charge. Anything under .05% and you should be clear. Anything over .04% and you are in trouble. Makes sense.. You can wake up from the night before and still blow a .02 or .03%

    http://www.1800duilaws.com/states/co.asp

    For anyone charged with drunk driving, DUI or DWAI in Colorado, it is vital to note that persons arrested for DUI have only 7 days from the date of arrest to request a hearing with the DMV. If someone arrested for drunk driving does not request the hearing on time, their license will be suspended, automatically. Period. A request to the Colorado Department of Revenue (which includes the Colorado DMV) requires a hearing within 60 days, and the driver's license to remain in good standing at least until the outcome of the DUI / DWAI hearing. DUI / DWAI defendants in Colorado can be charged with DUI (driving under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or a combination of the two), or DWAI. Colorado DWAI, which stands for Driving While Ability Impaired, is a lesser-offense, where the person's blood alcohol level (BAC) is .05 or higher.
    Colorado drunk driving (DUI / DWAI) arrests can relate to driving under the influence, or violation of the "per se" laws. Driving under the influence means driving a vehicle when a person has consumed intoxicants which affects the person to a degree that he or she is substantially incapable, mentally or physically, to exercise clear judgment, sufficient physical control, or due care in the safe operation of a vehicle.
    Colorado DUI per se charges are slightly different. The DUI per se charge is brought against those arrested for DUI who provide a breath or blood alcohol sample of .08% or higher. It does not matter what the driving pattern is like, or whether the person arrested performed Field Sobriety Tests with textbook precision. It is a charge that is based purely on body chemistry.


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    While I prefer to only drink at home, there are times that I have a beer with dinner out at a restaurant. During those times, I don't carry. I don't want any alcohol in my system while I have my gun on me. If I'm going out with others who will be drinking, I volunteer to be the DD and I will carry.

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    tpain wrote:
    While I prefer to only drink at home, there are times that I have a beer with dinner out at a restaurant. During those times, I don't carry. I don't want any alcohol in my system while I have my gun on me. If I'm going out with others who will be drinking, I volunteer to be the DD and I will carry.
    Hell yeah. Carrying keeps me flying straight. 9 times out of 10 I will opt to carry my pistol rather than drink alcohol. I don't mix the two.

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    I think that most of us can agree that it is better to be sober while carrying than to risk it or to have something happen. It was just something I was curious about because of the vague laws and the fact that I know that we all enjoy drinking on occasion.

    I'm more concerned with drinking at home now and, under the wrong circumstances, having to shoot an intruder either during or after you've had been drinking. It seems like, even though you would be in the right, you may find yourself in a world of legal issues for having a few beers and being a gun owner.

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    I thought I was not smart enough to find the exact statue, but in Colorado it is illegal to be under the influence of alcohol and be in possession of a firearm. .04 is used for determining if someone is under the influence. DWI has it own rules. If they think you have been drinking and blow a .04 and are carrying,they will charge you with the offense. Now the specific statue, ... Again, CSP who got pulled over a few weeks ago was charged with not only DWI, but also under the influence and in possession of a firearm which is considered a prohibited use......

    CRS- 18-12-106 Prohibited Use of a Weapon



    (1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:


    (a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person; or


    (b) Recklessly or with criminal negligence he discharges a firearm or shoots a bow and arrow; or


    (c) He knowingly sets a loaded gun, trap, or device designed to cause an explosion upon being tripped or approached, and leaves it unattended by a competent person immediately present; or


    (d) The person has in his or her possession a firearm while the person is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance, as defined in section 12-22-303 (7), 18-12-105.1, as it existed prior to its repeal, or possession of a permit or a temporary emergency permit issued pursuant to part 2 of this article is no defense to a violation of this subsection (1).




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    I personally think, given a life-or-death situation, especially in your own home, that the legality of your BAC would fly right out the ever-lovin' window.

    I know it would to me. And besides, wtf gives anybody the damn right to tell me I can't drink and defend myself in my own home?

    In public however, I think it's a different story. A beer or something if you can drink it and not feel it, probably ok. Anything more... plain outright stupid. If you're going OUT to drink, leave the gun at home and the car in the driveway. Besides, walking after drinking is a good way to get all that alcohol worked through and out of your system. Believe me, it works.

    Anyways, what I was trying to say is... If I pull my gun out of my holster, I'm probably gonna shoot somebody. Now if I'm gonna shoot somebody, it means I'm probably in danger of being seriously harmed or killed. And if I'm in danger of being seriously harmed or killed, I don't think I'll give two sh**s about the legality of it.

    Just my .02 (factoring in inflation and whatnot I think that makes it about .073)

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    Alamo Jack wrote:
    Anyways, what I was trying to say is... If I pull my gun out of my holster, I'm probably gonna shoot somebody. Now if I'm gonna shoot somebody, it means I'm probably in danger of being seriously harmed or killed. And if I'm in danger of being seriously harmed or killed, I don't think I'll give two sh**s about the legality of it.
    Unless you're drunk onSaturday afternoon and can't tell the UPS guy from an invading cadre of ninjas.

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    Alamo Jack wrote:
    I personally think, given a life-or-death situation, especially in your own home, that the legality of your BAC would fly right out the ever-lovin' window.

    I know it would to me. And besides, wtf gives anybody the damn right to tell me I can't drink and defend myself in my own home?

    In public however, I think it's a different story. A beer or something if you can drink it and not feel it, probably ok. Anything more... plain outright stupid. If you're going OUT to drink, leave the gun at home and the car in the driveway. Besides, walking after drinking is a good way to get all that alcohol worked through and out of your system. Believe me, it works.

    Anyways, what I was trying to say is... If I pull my gun out of my holster, I'm probably gonna shoot somebody. Now if I'm gonna shoot somebody, it means I'm probably in danger of being seriously harmed or killed. And if I'm in danger of being seriously harmed or killed, I don't think I'll give two sh**s about the legality of it.

    Just my .02 (factoring in inflation and whatnot I think that makes it about .073)
    +1 on that. I am always amazed at the people that ask "if I am at so and so and someone does so and so and I am about to be killed is it legal to shoot someone". If I pull my gun out to shoot someone then it is because I am about to be killed or similar. The last thing that is going to go through my mind is what is the law on this. If I have time to worry about what the law is then I have time to find a way out of the situation where I don't have to shoot someone. If you worry about the legality of shooting someone before you shoot them then it is either illegal or immoral to shoot them.


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