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Thread: Philadelphia Scare Tactics

  1. #1
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Hi folks,

    A lady on another gun group I belong to has posted about this and I thought I would post it here ... with her permission. I would post a link to the thread but you would have to join a crochet group to see it :what:

    First post:
    I am angry. Very angry. My local gun shop owner, and very good friend, is being harassed. A group of protesters, Heeding God’s Call, have been trying to force him to sign an illegal “Code of Conduct”. They are an offshoot of Mayor Blumberg’s Mayor’s Against Illegal Guns. So far there have been two protests held at the shop. The first time, it was on a weekend and we outnumbered them. The second time, it was on Good Friday during work hours and we were severely outnumbered.

    They say they are coming back in May (now scheduled for April 14)for another protest. We would really like to have “our side” more organized and better represented this time around. But it is hard. We try to get the word out, but unless you are looking in the right places, no one even knows that it is happening until the news puts out an article. The NRA sent out an email about it less than 24 hours before the protest was set to begin. While the effort is appreciated, how is anyone supposed to get the time off from work (if necessary) when the email arrives at 5:30pm the day before you need to take off??

    Also, this group has a base in Chicago as well, so expect to see more and more situations like this cropping up across the country.
    Then we asked some questions and this post is pretty clear about the questions being answered:
    they did have a permit. it was billed as a “prayer rally”. the cops and civil affairs were there keeping the peace between the two groups, but that was about it. philly is one of the most liberal cities around. none of the council members care about an “evil gun store” that has been in the community since the 80s.

    The owner was not allowed outside. I was posted inside the shop to make sure that he stayed there while the protest was going on outside. Of course, he wanted to go upstairs and pee out the side window onto them, so I don’t know what keeping him inside was going to accomplish =) The shop’s lawyer wasn’t allowing us to do too much. Which was getting us even more irritated. We were supposed to be the bigger people and ignore being called all sorts of lovely Christian things. That didn’t happen, but for the most part we behaved ourselves.

    Oh, and the permit… was to block off a street! They set up in the middle of the street and overtook the sidewalks of surrounding businesses and homes. Suffice to say, they were NOT happy campers… and that anger was not directed at the Shooter Shop.

    This is what they posted on their facebook page. All of the photo’s of our group have already been reported (misrepresentation of character, posting pics of minors without parental consent). We were the ones carrying flags. This is what we posted (you have to log into FB, but worth it) from the protest back in February (unfortunatly nothing has been uploaded yet from over the weekend. We were all too busy spending the holiday with family). Notice how we tried to be respectful and not show them with us?

    It was posted on several forums: defensivehandguns, pafoa, wethearmed, and who knows where else that I just don’t know of. People said that they were going to be there. At the last minute, phone calls started coming in saying that everyone needed to cancel because their family was making them do other things, or they just didn’t show up at all. It is sickening because these are the people that are supposed to be on our side! It isn’t any wonder why the country is in the shape it is when you realize that those with any desire to see our liberties saved have no motivation or drive! scream

    (I’m allowed to reprint these comments because they were made by my SO =) )
    TheZog
    @losinghopebytheday: You are completely wrong. Please note: 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4: Registration of firearms Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term “firearm” shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon. How much clearer do you want it?
    And this is the email she sent giving me permission to post this with additional information and links:
    Absolutely! Share away! The more people that learn about this, the better.

    PA -is- an open carry state; however, Philadelphia is -not- open carry.

    Here is a link to the shop for you. We were just told last night that they plan on coming back April 14th at 11am. It must be really nice for all of them that don’t have jobs to be able to do these types of things during the work week. It hasn’t been confirmed, because the last we had heard they were due to come back in May, but it is being put out there as their next date.

    Also, here is the article about the first protest. Oh, and their Flickr of the protest. Notice how they don’t even specify that those with flags are not there for them?

    As my last post pointed out, the code they want signed is illegal in the state of pa, and the shop already does -everything else on it- because yes, the code is good in the theory of moral business practices. And they are all holding up the fact that Collisemo’s (sp) closed down after their protests… they had nothing to do with it. The owner, unfortunatly, was another victim of the failing economy and needed to close down, just like so many others in the country.
    cheers - okboomer
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    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

  2. #2
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Philadelphia IS "open carry". You just need an LTCF to do it. If you have one, they can't lawfully stop you without committing preemption and civil rights violations.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    I don't understand ... you say Philly is Open Carry but that you have to have a LTCF ... what is an LTCF and how do you get it?
    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    okboomer wrote:
    I don't understand ... you say Philly is Open Carry but that you have to have a LTCF ... what is an LTCF and how do you get it?
    LTCF = license to carry firearms

    http://www.ppdonline.org/hq_gunpermit.php

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Oh, so you have to have a permit to carry openly ... <dripping sarcasm>

    I thought Open Carry was premised on not requiring a license?
    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    In Philadelphia you have to have a LTCF or a permit from another state to open carry, but the rest of the state you don't.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    labteche wrote:
    In Philadelphia you have to have a LTCF or a permit from another state to open carry, but the rest of the state you don't.
    Except you may not OC in a vehicle anywhere in Pa. without a LTCF.

    That and a permit from another state must be one of those with reciprocity.

    http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...=L2&mode=2

    Yata hey



    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Update please.Was there another protest and counter protest yesterday (14 April) ?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    It was a no show on behalf of the anti's.
    Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent.
    Louis Dembitz Brandeis

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Heh, heh, heh ... well, actually the christian group did show up, for a little while:
    Yeah, we are of the impression that they actually -did- show up and high-tailed it out of there when they saw that we pulled together about 40 people during a weekday afternoon =) (coughcough-ohhh-my-tummy) We turned it into a “Pro Rally” instead and actually wound up making the news! Which really irked their supporters, because all of a sudden, TWO WEEKS LATER, this letter was sent to the newspaper. They must not’ve liked that we got tv coverage when they weren’t around, so they needed to make us all look bad. Again, I think that the comments summed it up rather well. And that isn’t even bringing into play the fact that Civil Affairs and the Police kept coming in to tell the owner that we were not getting out of hand and they were impressed (and pleased) with how respectful we were being in the face of all that was going on.
    With all of this going on, it has prompted my SO to start a blog about the sanity of people trying to uphold their rights. Tea and Sanity is very new, but with support he will keep it up and running in order to let people know that there is a place of reason on the internet that isn’t being overrun by extremists.
    At the link to the Philadelphia Enquirer letter, the comments are priceless!


    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Wow. I honestly hope no group tries this in Alabama. Thanks to our 'public demonstration' law, we would never be allowed to stage an armed counter-protest. All it would take is a few dedicated anti-gun groups to effectively shut down any gun shop they wanted. :X

    "I'm sorry sir, you can't leave that store with that weapon, there is a demonstration going on out here."


    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    mcdonalk wrote:
    Wow. I honestly hope no group tries this in Alabama. Thanks to our 'public demonstration' law, we would never be allowed to stage an armed counter-protest. All it would take is a few dedicated anti-gun groups to effectively shut down any gun shop they wanted. :X

    "I'm sorry sir, you can't leave that store with that weapon, there is a demonstration going on out here."

    Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

    How would someone leaving a store legally be prevented from doing so - demonstration or not? They obviously are not part of same.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    mcdonalk wrote:
    Wow. I honestly hope no group tries this in Alabama. Thanks to our 'public demonstration' law, we would never be allowed to stage an armed counter-protest. All it would take is a few dedicated anti-gun groups to effectively shut down any gun shop they wanted. :X

    "I'm sorry sir, you can't leave that store with that weapon, there is a demonstration going on out here."

    Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

    How would someone leaving a store legally be prevented from doing so - demonstration or not? They obviously are not part of same.

    Yata hey
    If he is not participating in the rally, he is not breaking the law until he is advised by a LEO that he is within 1000 feet of a demonstration and then does not leave.

    As a matter of fact, he could leave the store and hang with the demonstrators until the LEO tells him otherwise!

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    http://www.phillyrecord.com/?cat=1



    check out the 2nd article, that should make them CRAZIER

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    Sounds like she encountered some radical bunch, not typical Christian people. Most the ones I know believe in carrying guns (including myself!). Shame when one small bunch makes an entire group look bad!

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    okboomer wrote:
    This is what they posted on their facebook page. All of the photo’s of our group have already been reported (misrepresentation of character, posting pics of minors without parental consent).
    As someone who has an interest in photography, I should make a correction. There is no crime for photographing people who are in public, regardless of age. If there was a reasonable expectation of privacy like a completely opaque fence surrounding a school yard, then climbing the fence to take photos would be unlawful.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    okboomer wrote:
    This is what they posted on their facebook page. All of the photo’s of our group have already been reported (misrepresentation of character, posting pics of minors without parental consent).
    As someone who has an interest in photography, I should make a correction. There is no crime for photographing people who are in public, regardless of age. If there was a reasonable expectation of privacy like a completely opaque fence surrounding a school yard, then climbing the fence to take photos would be unlawful.
    That is accurate! The only way there could be a fault is if the photos were used for profit, I believe, in which case one would have to seek permission. A FB page isn't for profit, so no crime there.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    LadyGreenEyes,

    Affirmative. If a photographer takes a crowd shot, then such a matter doesn't apply. If you use a photo distinctively of a person or persons, permission must be given.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    LadyGreenEyes wrote:
    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    okboomer wrote:
    This is what they posted on their facebook page. All of the photo’s of our group have already been reported (misrepresentation of character, posting pics of minors without parental consent).
    As someone who has an interest in photography, I should make a correction. There is no crime for photographing people who are in public, regardless of age. If there was a reasonable expectation of privacy like a completely opaque fence surrounding a school yard, then climbing the fence to take photos would be unlawful.
    That is accurate! The only way there could be a fault is if the photos were used for profit, I believe, in which case one would have to seek permission. A FB page isn't for profit, so no crime there.
    Cite please.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Grapeshot,

    http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/privacy...s_Sections.htm

    � 652C Appropriation of Name or Likeness
    One who appropriates to his own use or benefit the name or likeness of another is subject to liability to the other for invasion of his privacy.

    Comments:
    a.The interest protected by the rule stated in this Section is the interest of the individual in the exclusive use of his own identity, in so far as it is represented by his name or likeness, and in so far as the use may be of benefit to him or to others. Although the protection of his personal feelings against mental distress is an important factor leading to a recognition of the rule, the right created by it is in the nature of a property right, for the exercise of which an exclusive license may be given to a third person, which will entitle the licensee to maintain an action to protect it.
    b.How invaded.The common form of invasion of privacy under the rule here stated is the appropriation and use of the plaintiff's name or likeness to advertise the defendant's business or product, or for some similar commercial purpose. Apart from statute, however, the rule stated is not limited to commercial appropriation. It applies also when the defendant makes use of the plaintiff's name or likeness for his own purposes and benefit, even though the use is not a commercial one, and even though the benefit sought to be obtained is not a pecuniary one. Statutes in some states have, however, limited the liability to commercial uses of the name or likeness.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Grapeshot,

    http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/privacy...s_Sections.htm

    � 652C Appropriation of Name or Likeness
    One who appropriates to his own use or benefit the name or likeness of another is subject to liability to the other for invasion of his privacy.

    Comments:
    a.The interest protected by the rule stated in this Section is the interest of the individual in the exclusive use of his own identity, in so far as it is represented by his name or likeness, and in so far as the use may be of benefit to him or to others. Although the protection of his personal feelings against mental distress is an important factor leading to a recognition of the rule, the right created by it is in the nature of a property right, for the exercise of which an exclusive license may be given to a third person, which will entitle the licensee to maintain an action to protect it.
    b.How invaded.The common form of invasion of privacy under the rule here stated is the appropriation and use of the plaintiff's name or likeness to advertise the defendant's business or product, or for some similar commercial purpose. Apart from statute, however, the rule stated is not limited to commercial appropriation. It applies also when the defendant makes use of the plaintiff's name or likeness for his own purposes and benefit, even though the use is not a commercial one, and even though the benefit sought to be obtained is not a pecuniary one. Statutes in some states have, however, limited the liability to commercial uses of the name or likeness.
    Apply this to a media photography taking pictures in a public environment.

    How does this play?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Grapeshot,

    Media photography, as in the news? Newsworthy material typically is "fair use", but there are certain restrictions pertaining to children(under 18). i.e. Name of a child. If it's newsworthy like a grounds fair, even asking a kid on if the fair is fun, it's "OK."

    Media is simply reporting the news, but there are restrictions. The media can't just take someone's videos/photos without permission and use them. Also, to buy photos/video from a freelance agent when about a specific person crosses the privacy line as well.
    http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/...itzgerald.html

    Here are some Fair Use examples/cases.
    http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyrigh...pter9/9-c.html
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Grapeshot,

    Media photography, as in the news? Newsworthy material typically is "fair use", but there are certain restrictions pertaining to children(under 18). i.e. Name of a child. If it's newsworthy like a grounds fair, even asking a kid on if the fair is fun, it's "OK."

    Media is simply reporting the news, but there are restrictions. The media can't just take someone's videos/photos without permission and use them. Also, to buy photos/video from a freelance agent when about a specific person crosses the privacy line as well.
    http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/...itzgerald.html

    Here are some Fair Use examples/cases.
    http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyrigh...pter9/9-c.html
    Maybe it is they way I am reading your cites, but I see nothing to preclude someone from taking pictures in public and making a buck.

    The first cite seems to relate to using someone else's photographic material and the second to literary works. What am I missing?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Grapeshot,

    the fitzgerald link describes in the lower center of the paragraph explaining the case wasn't about the news. The infringement came from a freelancer taking photos about a specific person and selling them for commercial gain. The freelance agent did not seek permission from the subject.

    The difference in taking photos and posting them online, there is no commercial gain. Of course this is not black and white, there are gray areas like posting photos with intent to harass the subject.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Grapeshot,

    the fitzgerald link describes in the lower center of the paragraph explaining the case wasn't about the news. The infringement came from a freelancer taking photos about a specific person and selling them for commercial gain. The freelance agent did not seek permission from the subject.

    The difference in taking photos and posting them online, there is no commercial gain. Of course this is not black and white, there are gray areas like posting photos with intent to harass the subject.
    Grapeshot needs more indoctrination - he is not pleased.

    Privacy is good - restriction on making money on what is available for all to see - bad.

    Guess that is why there is a difference between myself and lawyers - I don't get paid for my opinions.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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