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Thread: ball-point (target) or JHP and why

  1. #1
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    I am aware that a target round, if fired indoors could go through several walls/objects before it stops, but for self defense, if (God forbid) you have to shoot to defend yourself, being aware of the potential pass-through danger, could a target round ricochet internally and change directions? Are bones rigid enough to alter the course of a 180 or 230gr bullet?

    I'm very curious about this, as I have yet to pick upJHP loads for my 40 and 45.

    Thanks in advance

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    2ndammendment wrote:
    I am aware that a target round, if fired indoors could go through several walls/objects before it stops, but for self defense, if (God forbid) you have to shoot to defend yourself, being aware of the potential pass-through danger, could a target round ricochet internally and change directions?* Are bones rigid enough to alter the course of a 180 or 230gr bullet?

    I'm very curious about this, as I have yet to pick up FMJ loads for my 40 and 45.

    Thanks in advance
    I think the major concern with ball ammo for self defense is over penetration and danger to bystanders. In some smaller calibers (22,25,32) ball ammo may be desirable to ensure penetration.

    I've heard of strange things like a bullet going in one direction and exiting another but don't know enough of why. My guess is when a bullet fragments the pieces can break off in different directions.

    The advantage of hollow point is the expansion causes a larger wound AND transfers most of the energy to the body rather than over-penetrating. Some have said that exit wounds are much larger than entrance wounds so you WANT over-penetration. I think most would he happier without killing an innocent behind the person you are targeting.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    May I suggest doing a 'net search for "ballistic gel studies"...?

    Going here:

    http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

    will give you plenty of info to look up.......

    Modern jacketed hollow point (JHP) self defense ammunition all share the same criteria of penetrating 12 to about 16 inches. It is designed to fully expand and stop penetrating somewhere between those two distances for one specific reason... to stay inside the bad guy shot thereby dumping all the energy and creating the most damage.

    Obviously staying inside and dumping all the energy while doing the most damage will enhance the chances of causing a bad guy to stop attacking... but a jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullet by expanding and staying inside will also prevent, or dramatically lessen, the chances of the bullet going right on through and hitting an innocent standing behind the bad guy. And, bullets being bullets in that they can travel very long distances, the innocent might not be standing directly behind the bad guy but might be many yards away... but still get hit, and injured, by a bullet that went right through the bad guy. Remember... we are legally liable for each and every bullet that comes out of our guns regardless of where they go.

    And ball, or round nose, or as it is commonly called... full metal jacket (FMJ)... bullets are prone to going right on through the bad guy.

    So please allow me to suggest researching then choosing the best performing JHP bullet design that will cycle through your gun reliably (test fire several magazines full before carrying it just to make sure your gun will work reliably with that ammo please!) and leave the FMJ ammo for range work.

    And please do not fall for the erroneous line of thought of buying a cheap self defense ammo hoping to save a few pennies... buy what will work best in your gun while providing the best defensive performance. After all... it would be terrible to have your ammo let you down and your last thoughts are.... "Well, at least I saved $15 on that box of ammo."
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    2ndammendment wrote:
    I am aware that a target round, if fired indoors could go through several walls/objects before it stops, but for self defense, if (God forbid) you have to shoot to defend yourself, being aware of the potential pass-through danger, could a target round ricochet internally and change directions? Are bones rigid enough to alter the course of a 180 or 230gr bullet?

    I'm very curious about this, as I have yet to pick upJHP loads for my 40 and 45.

    Thanks in advance
    There are no set or tried-and-true absolutes regarding bullet behavior upon entering the human body. Just about everything you can imagine happening is open to really happening. With this said, most people who carry a defensive firearm opt for the best defensive ammunition which in their mind, is most likely to help them survive an extreme encounter. Most of the time, this means some type of expanding or frangible cartridge design.

    A bullet's path certainly can and frequently does change due to striking heavy muscle, tendons, ligaments, skin, and bones. And handgun bullets also inflict serious damage on these body parts as well. Here is a link you might find interesting. While some people have taken issue with the writer's position, the more information you can gather, the better off you're going to be when selecting defensive ammunition.

    http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    In a situation where I needed to stop something from killing me then bystanders would be the last of my concerns.
    Really?? So you are on a trip with your family, go into the quick shop for some snacks and a BG comes in standing between you and your family and points a gun at you and you are just going to draw your sidearm and start blasting away with your family as a back stop?

    I'm thinking you may want to think through your position a little more because every innocent bystander is someone's mother, father, son, daughter, etc.

    Remember, one of the primary gun safety rules is to know your target and what is behind it.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    I have considered my policy many times thank you.

    I am not in the business of getting killed.

    If I have to fire then I am going to fire, no matter what.

    If I have to fire then the odds of hitting a bystander are much less than the odds of me being killed.

    My gun will save my life and the doctors will save the lives of whoever I hit by accident.

    Well, I hope you have a good lawyer handy...you'll damn sure need it. I personally find your policy lacking and more than just a little irresponsible. If I were you I’d quit posting my “policy” as it will find great play in a court room while you are on trial for shooting indecent bystanders to save your life.



    Steve
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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    In a situation where I needed to stop something from killing me then bystanders would be the last of my concerns.
    I just read through your posts on this subject and realized that my previous reply did not really make my point.... You should not be carrying a firearm period...You obviously do not have the maturity nor mental capacity to carry a firearm in public.

    Whatever the case, I’m done with you.



    Steve
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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    In a situation where I needed to stop something from killing me then bystanders would be the last of my concerns.*
    Proving what I have suspected for a long time:
    People who think they are more important than anyone else are usually worthless.

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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Ca Patriot wrote:
    In a situation where I needed to stop something from killing me then bystanders would be the last of my concerns.
    Really?? So you are on a trip with your family, go into the quick shop for some snacks and a BG comes in standing between you and your family and points a gun at you and you are just going to draw your sidearm and start blasting away with your family as a back stop?

    I'm thinking you may want to think through your position a little more because every innocent bystander is someone's mother, father, son, daughter, etc.

    Remember, one of the primary gun safety rules is to know your target and what is behind it.
    I have considered my policy many times thank you.

    I am not in the business of getting killed.

    If I have to fire then I am going to fire, no matter what.

    If I have to fire then the odds of hitting a bystander are much less than the odds of me being killed.

    My gun will save my life and the doctors will save the lives of whoever I hit by accident.
    Darn poor philosophy that violates the precepts of firearms safety and being a responsible citizen - all for one and one for me kind of thing.

    Neither endorsed by others here nor supported by law - in fact a violation of laws in many states I believe and OCDO insists on obeying all laws and being a responsible citizen.

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regardless of your view on bystanders and people behind your target, I don't think ammunition selection is a substitute for making sure you can fire safely without harming others.

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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    In a situation where I needed to stop something from killing me then bystanders would be the last of my concerns.
    *****
    I hope you realize that you are responsible for every round you fire. Over-penetration included.
    FMJ will penetrate, but it does not do the damage to tissue that a JHP will. The JHP will get the job done faster than using 'Hardball'. The wound cavity of JHP is vastly superior to the Pass thru cavity that you get with 'Hardball'.
    Think of it as: You are shooting to try to end the problem as fast as possible. Use JHP.
    The military does not use FMJ due to signing the Geneva Convention. In the military the theory is that it ties up more of the enemy, treating someone that's wounded.
    If JHP gets the job done faster, with less threat to bystanders. It makes good sense to go into court, and you will go into court, and be able to say that you tried to end a confrontation as fast as possible...

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    There is no way to exactly determine if a bullet will travel througha target. Bulletsmay radically alter couse when traveling through a target. If one's life is threatened I see no problem shooting to stop the threat. One should not accept death simply because there are people behind a target. Of course one is always responsible for the bullets out of one's firearm.

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    I would never want to put someone in harms way, especially not someone close to me. Thanks for your input

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    My extensive experience with .45 acp shows that nothing other than FMJ "target ammo" is needed for safe, effective performance in this round.



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    George Mann wrote:
    My extensive experience with .45 acp shows that nothing other than FMJ "target ammo" is needed for safe, effective performance in this round.
    There you have it - discussion over.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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