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Thread: Cross Draw, Disadvantages?

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    My firearm instructor had a great point about cross draw, which i fully agree with. If the assailant is in close range, and you reach your arm across your body to draw, they can pin your arm to your body and keep you from drawing. When the gun is on your strong side, you can put one arm out and turn so that your strong side is facing away and out of reach.

    I find it surprising how many people carry cross draw. Do they not think of this or just figure its not a big deal? I understand that drawing at that close of a range isn't always a good idea, and he is a police officer, so im sure he is in situations where that is a possibility more often, but i still think its an option i wouldn't want to loose just in case.

    What are your thought on this? I would especially like to hear from people who carry cross draw. If you feel comfortable carrying like then, then i think its better to carry then not, im simply curious about this, not trying to get anybody to change their methods, just to think about it a little.

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    I don't carry in what is thought of as cross draw, rather I carry on the strong-side hip, around 4-5.

    The crossdraw comes in when I cannot use my right hand to draw, and I reach around behind me to draw with my left hand.

    So long as your carry method allows draw from either hand, I consider it advantageous.

    My carry method becomes disadvantageous in a car, compared to proper cross-draw, so that is at least one point in the favor of proper cross-draw.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Regular cross draw has the advantage of a faster and more comfortable draw for those folks short of torso but long of arm. Consider if your waist were 3 inches higher than it is and how much more difficult that would make drawing from the hip.

    A retention holster helps with the concern of a gun grab.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:

    A retention holster helps with the concern of a gun grab.
    Im not talking about retention, i can admit that having the gun up front gets you a better view of it, and would make it harder to snatch, retention holster or not.

    What im talking about, is when you take your right hand to go and draw, it is crossing your body from the shoulder to your left hip area. If the person your drawing on is fast enough, or close enough, all they have to do is pin your arm against your chest, and you will not be able to draw.

    If the pistol is carried 3-5 o'clock ish, then you can put your weak side towards them, and draw from a position they cannot reach.

    This is why cops never carry crossdraw.

    So to those who carry crossdraw, is this a compromise you make for comfort, or just something your not worried about, or never thought about?

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    paintsnow wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:

    A retention holster helps with the concern of a gun grab.
    Im not talking about retention, i can admit that having the gun up front gets you a better view of it, and would make it harder to snatch, retention holster or not.

    What im talking about, is when you take your right hand to go and draw, it is crossing your body from the shoulder to your left hip area. If the person your drawing on is fast enough, or close enough, all they have to do is pin your arm against your chest, and you will not be able to draw.

    If the pistol is carried 3-5 o'clock ish, then you can put your weak side towards them, and draw from a position they cannot reach.

    This is why cops never carry crossdraw.

    So to those who carry crossdraw, is this a compromise you make for comfort, or just something your not worried about, or never thought about?
    Perhaps you missed the first paragraph of my post?

    Bikenut wrote: Regular cross draw has the advantage of a faster and more comfortable draw for those folks short of torso but long of arm. Consider if your waist were 3 inches higher than it is and how much more difficult that would make drawing from the hip.

    A retention holster helps with the concern of a gun grab.

    ----------

    I don't carry cross draw but Yooperlady does... and she carries that way because she can't draw very well from the hip but can draw easily cross draw. And, to lessen the concern about a gun grab (that has never happened to a citizen to date as far as I know as I've not seen a citeable source of such yet) she uses a retention holster....

    Now... about a bad guy pinning her arm and preventing a draw... if she waited until the bad guy was close enough to do that before drawing he already has stabbed, shot, or choked her... so it would, in my opinion, be a moot point. I would be more concerned with the possibility of someone sneaking up from behind and accessing a hip holster than someone coming from the front where she can see them and pinning her arm before she could respond.

    Bottom line is simple.... use what ever method of carry works the best for you.... just be sure to consider all the factors before choosing.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Sorry but I have to disagree, his argument isn't valid. Crossdraw does not prevent me from still using my left arm to distance the bg from me while I draw. Same respect to strong side carry, you still have a free arm to use, so I don't follow his thinking on this one. If you look at history in the U.S., almost all of our early military had crossdraw holsters and if you research this you will find most of the "famous shootist" of the 1800's also were crossdraw. Cowboys actually started the "drop leg" holster fashion. It kept the holster and gun out of the way while herding, roping cattle etc. I have "outdrawn" my sons using crossdraw vs strong side, but as you say the best is what ever works for the individual.
    JMO

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    Bikenut wrote:
    paintsnow wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:

    A retention holster helps with the concern of a gun grab.
    Im not talking about retention, i can admit that having the gun up front gets you a better view of it, and would make it harder to snatch, retention holster or not.

    What im talking about, is when you take your right hand to go and draw, it is crossing your body from the shoulder to your left hip area. If the person your drawing on is fast enough, or close enough, all they have to do is pin your arm against your chest, and you will not be able to draw.

    If the pistol is carried 3-5 o'clock ish, then you can put your weak side towards them, and draw from a position they cannot reach.

    This is why cops never carry crossdraw.

    So to those who carry crossdraw, is this a compromise you make for comfort, or just something your not worried about, or never thought about?
    Perhaps you missed the first paragraph of my post?

    Bikenut wrote: Regular cross draw has the advantage of a faster and more comfortable draw ...

    ...
    she carries that way because she can't draw very well from the hip but can draw easily cross draw...


    Bottom line is simple.... use what ever method of carry works the best for you.... just be sure to consider all the factors before choosing.
    Ahh, when i read the comfortable draw part, i thought it was refering more to general comfort, and comfort while seated such as in a vehicle.

    The part about not being able to draw from the hip (very well) clears that up a lot.

    I did skim over the part suggesting the consideration of my waist being 3in higher, as i thought it was a comfort thing more than a limited range of motion preventing a good draw.

    I agree with the bottom line, and have no issues with other people carrying cross draw, i have just never seen or heard the arm pin part of it until my instructor mentioned it.

    I think he was talking about a situation where the attacker is unarmed, or trying to prevent you from arming yourself, which would require both his hands, so he can either pin, or stab/shoot/choke. If they are unarmed and attempting to take the gun after you attempt to draw for whatever reason (say the attacker flat out said im going to kill you and started walking towards you).

    I realize there has never been a reported gun grab, and i OC exclusively, with no worries about that, but there have been struggles over a weapon.

    And if they are choking you, your arm could be trapped between your body and theirs. So 3-5 ish oclock would be better in this particular situation. Or at least thats how i feel. Im sure you could come up with situations where 3-5 would be a bad spot to carry as well.

    So keep carrying how ever you prefer, and thanks for the answers. I was just curious because ive never seen the arm pin publicly considered, while gun grabs, drawing while in a vehicle, etc, have all been discussed for 3-5 oclock carry.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Had to add this... and I'll probably catch heck for it...

    When taking training classes it is wise to take in all the information you paid for... and then going home and try it out during practice sessions to see if it actually works for you. If a method doesn't come easily or feel natural the amount of practice necessary to make it happen naturally when under stress involves so many hours that us regular folks just don't have the time or range/ammo money to get it done.

    Many trainers have a set methodology that they believe in and teach. And many of those methods are perfectly viable and worthwhile. But they don't always work for everyone nor do they always work in every situation.

    So please think through everything you learn, try everything to see if it will work... and just keep what works for you and forget the rest.

    The good thing is... in the past decade many trainers have gotten away from teaching set methods and are basing their training on the real world encounters expected to happen to average folks.

    Avoid any training that insists there is a "shooting stance" needed for self defense. "Stances" are for the range... moving while shooting are real world save your butt stuff.

    Ok... I took this one off topic... but it bugs me when trainers teach stuff that isn't helpful to their students.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    paintsnow wrote:
    Ahh, when i read the comfortable draw part, i thought it was refering more to general comfort, and comfort while seated such as in a vehicle.

    The part about not being able to draw from the hip (very well) clears that up a lot.

    I did skim over the part suggesting the consideration of my waist being 3in higher, as i thought it was a comfort thing more than a limited range of motion preventing a good draw.

    I agree with the bottom line, and have no issues with other people carrying cross draw, i have just never seen or heard the arm pin part of it until my instructor mentioned it.

    I think he was talking about a situation where the attacker is unarmed, or trying to prevent you from arming yourself, which would require both his hands, so he can either pin, or stab/shoot/choke. If they are unarmed and attempting to take the gun after you attempt to draw for whatever reason (say the attacker flat out said im going to kill you and started walking towards you).

    I realize there has never been a reported gun grab, and i OC exclusively, with no worries about that, but there have been struggles over a weapon.

    And if they are choking you, your arm could be trapped between your body and theirs. So 3-5 ish oclock would be better in this particular situation. Or at least thats how i feel. Im sure you could come up with situations where 3-5 would be a bad spot to carry as well.

    So keep carrying how ever you prefer, and thanks for the answers. I was just curious because ive never seen the arm pin publicly considered, while gun grabs, drawing while in a vehicle, etc, have all been discussed for 3-5 oclock carry.
    It's all good.

    One thing I am concerned about is folks are extremely reluctant to address an assailant who is not "armed" in the usual sense with a weapon of some kind. I think it is a natural thing where people feel more threatened by the presence of a weapon... but neglect to understand that the assailant can be just as deadly without a weapon... and, when faced with imminent death or great harm, the response needs to be the same.... whether the assailant is "armed" or not.

    Fortunately Yooperlady is well aware of all of that and I have no doubt an assailant would not get near enough to prevent her from drawing from cross draw.

    Good discussion...
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    I carry both ways, dependiong on which side arm I'm carrying.

    If I carry my CZ82 I wear it strongside with the service holster it came with. If I carry my SA.45 revolver I'll carry it cross draw.

    The CZ 82 has a barrel just under 4 inches. Clearing the holster on the strong side is quick and easy.

    My SA .45 revolver has a 5.5 inch barrel. Trying to craw it from a belt holster on my strong side would be a bit difficult, since I'd have to raise it fairly high to clear the holster before bringing it forward. Cross draw at about 10 o:clocksolves this problem. Makes it easier to draw if I'm setting in my truck, too.

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    I carry cross draw because of shoulder injuries that keep me from doing a strong side draw.
    Perhaps if you would use a real computer you wouldn't have to apologize for not being able to do so many things on the internet!

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    Here's an interesting read on the positive side of cross draw.
    http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0101.html

    I made myself several cross draw holsters for two different guns and I'm liking the results.

    Andy


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    paintsnow wrote:
    My firearm instructor had a great point about [something]
    Opinions are like firearm instructors, (most) eveyone's got one.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    paintsnow wrote:
    My firearm instructor had a great point about [something]
    Opinions are like firearm instructors, (most) eveyone's got one.
    Makes sense.

    He was my friend before he was my firearms instructor though.

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    Opinions, Paint. Opinions.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    There are many. Bill Jordan wrote about this issue extensively in No Second Place Winner. Quick summary (paraphrasing from the book):

    1) Prisoners in unsecured police cars. This probably doesn't apply to you.
    2) Apprehending suspects and gun grabs. Again, probably "N/A"
    3) Position of the gun results in a swinging motion across the target. The gun must be stopped in a narrow band in order to achieve a hit.
    4) General retention: cover with the elbow. Probably applicable to any OCing situation.
    5) Surprise conditions: drawing from a holster near the natural position of the hands is more intuitive.

    #5 is most important. If you're behind the reactionary curve, you will REALLY need your gun out NOW. The first reaction should be to move, but the second action (with a step or two) is to draw to the target. Drawing to the target means the muzzle points at the target as soon as the muzzle clears the holster. The gun could be pointing across the body. Obviously, this requires serious training time with guns, point shooting, sighted shooting, moving while shooting, force on force and combatives to get right. There are reasons to do it and to not do it; knowing when (and why) to do it is a skill that takes time to develop.

    I'm ambiguous on #3. I can see it as a possible issue under (lethal force) pressure. Under range conditions...it's probably not a problem. I defer to Jordan's opinion on it since he had the experience.
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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    AbNo wrote:
    paintsnow wrote:
    My firearm instructor had a great point about [something]
    Opinions are like firearm instructors, (most) eveyone's got one.
    Opinions are like Azzholes - everybody has a least one of each. :quirky

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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