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Thread: UOC at Tea Party

  1. #1
    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    I recently UOC at a Tea Party in my local area, but wondered of anyone else intended to go to the Apr 15th Ta Party in Sacramento and if anyone else would be UOC.

    I ask because after UOC 7 times prior to the Tea Party event I went to without incident, on my 8th time, at the event I had my first encounter with LEO's.

    They were respectful but handled things in a way that showed their ignorance on the subject. This hasn't completely discouraged me from OUC at the state capital but it has made me think twice.

    Can anyone advise?

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    See this tread about how you can UOC at the State Capital.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/41853.html


    IMO it probably would be best to make a political speech protest by wearing an empty holster rather than actually UOC. Remember you would really just be carrying an unloaded firearm with no access to ammo at the state capital. Also, I think the empty holster statement with some positive press will help counter the push in the state legislator to ban UOC completely (for normal non-exempted law-abiding citizens, like most of us in this state).

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    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    Yes, if I don't UOC, I will be performing an empty holster protest in its place.

    However, from reading the applicable penal codes (at least the ones given in the thread link provided), there seems to be nothing to suggest that UOC is any more restricted at the state capital than anywhere else. Does anyone know otherwise?

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    Publius wrote:
    Yes, if I don't UOC, I will be performing an empty holster protest in its place.

    However, from reading the applicable penal codes (at least the ones given in the thread link provided), there seems to be nothing to suggest that UOC is any more restricted at the state capital than anywhere else. Does anyone know otherwise?
    Yes it is. From the previous link comes this from the penal code:

    171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections
    171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate
    possession of the same person.
    In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the
    purpose of enforcing Section 171c or 171d, peace officers are
    authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his person or
    in a vehicle while in any place or on the grounds of any place in or
    on which the possession of a loaded firearm is prohibited by Section
    171c or 171d. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm
    pursuant to the provisions of this section constitutes probable cause
    for arrest for violation of Section 171c or 171d.

    IMO that means that you can have either the firearm or the ammo on your person, but not both. INAL.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    jsebclark wrote:
    Publius wrote:
    Yes, if I don't UOC, I will be performing an empty holster protest in its place.

    However, from reading the applicable penal codes (at least the ones given in the thread link provided), there seems to be nothing to suggest that UOC is any more restricted at the state capital than anywhere else. Does anyone know otherwise?
    Yes it is. From the previous link comes this from the penal code:

    171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections
    171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate
    possession of the same person.
    In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the
    purpose of enforcing Section 171c or 171d, peace officers are
    authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his person or
    in a vehicle while in any place or on the grounds of any place in or
    on which the possession of a loaded firearm is prohibited by Section
    171c or 171d. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm
    pursuant to the provisions of this section constitutes probable cause
    for arrest for violation of Section 171c or 171d.

    IMO that means that you can have either the firearm or the ammo on your person, but not both. INAL.
    who brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm
    within, the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the
    Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in
    which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a
    hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded
    by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento,

    You can carry without ammo.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  6. #6
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Publius wrote:
    I recently UOC at a Tea Party in my local area, but wondered of anyone else intended to go to the Apr 15th Ta Party in Sacramento and if anyone else would be UOC.

    I ask because after UOC 7 times prior to the Tea Party event I went to without incident, on my 8th time, at the event I had my first encounter with LEO's.

    They were respectful but handled things in a way that showed their ignorance on the subject. This hasn't completely discouraged me from OUC at the state capital but it has made me think twice.

    Can anyone advise?
    You cannot carry any weapon on the Capitol grounds because it is considered a State Park. It is irrelevant as to whether or not your holstered pistol is loaded, weapons are prohibited.
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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Publius wrote:
    I recently UOC at a Tea Party in my local area, but wondered of anyone else intended to go to the Apr 15th Ta Party in Sacramento and if anyone else would be UOC.

    I ask because after UOC 7 times prior to the Tea Party event I went to without incident, on my 8th time, at the event I had my first encounter with LEO's.

    They were respectful but handled things in a way that showed their ignorance on the subject. This hasn't completely discouraged me from OUC at the state capital but it has made me think twice.

    Can anyone advise?
    You cannot carry any weapon on the Capitol grounds because it is considered a State Park. It is irrelevant as to whether or not your holstered pistol is loaded, weapons are prohibited.
    Thank you ConditionThree for this info.

    Here is a link that describes what is allow, or should I say NOT allowed, at the capital and surrounds ground. They obviously list guns, etc.

    http://capitolmuseum.ca.gov/detail.a...;content3=1576

    Please get the word out. Again I think it best to empty holster carry.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Maybe signs would be better than empty holsters?
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Why not do both?

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    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
    If ammunition is in a magazine on your opposite hip, then the ammunition contained in the magazines are NOT capable of being discharged.


    You cannot carry any weapon on the Capitol grounds because it is considered a State Park. It is irrelevant as to whether or not your holstered pistol is loaded, weapons are prohibited.
    Thank you for this info, I will investigate further.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    Yeah, end of discussion. The State capital is a state park. I will simply empty holster it.

    PS
    Either way I was going to bring my Porcupine Gadsden flag, signs, family, and friends.

    Thank you all for the help.

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    Publius wrote:
    171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
    If ammunition is in a magazine on your opposite hip, then the ammunition contained in the magazines are NOT capable of being discharged.
    Do you have a citation for this claim?

    It seems extremely clear and obvious that the legislative intent was to prohibit the carrying of ammunition of a caliber that can be discharged in the firearm you possess. The intent, in short, is to render the firearm nearly useless by precluding the possibility of loading/discharging the firearm. This makes sense in light of the history of the Mulford Act and the Black Panthers protest at the state house.
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    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Publius wrote:
    171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
    If ammunition is in a magazine on your opposite hip, then the ammunition contained in the magazines are NOT capable of being discharged.
    Do you have a citation for this claim?

    It seems extremely clear and obvious that the legislative intent was to prohibit the carrying of ammunition of a caliber that can be discharged in the firearm you possess. The intent, in short, is to render the firearm nearly useless by precluding the possibility of loading/discharging the firearm. This makes sense in light of the history of the Mulford Act and the Black Panthers protest at the state house.
    The following is the wording found in subsection (g) of PC 12031:

    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
    this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
    consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
    shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
    not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
    attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
    deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
    charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

    We find clarification in People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99:

    "...When the police seized the shotgun, it did not have a shell in the firing chamber. There were, however, three shells located in a covered compartment at the rear of the shotgun's stock. It is not possible to fire a shell from that location; a shell would have to be removed from the compartment and placed by hand in the chamber before it could be fired..."

    "...to the extent an ambiguity exists between whether the Legislature intended the term "loaded" to be used in its ordinary sense (i.e., a shell placed in a position ready to be fired) or to be used in an unusual sense (i.e., including a shell placed in a storage compartment from which it cannot be fired), we adopt the construction more favorable to Clark, i.e., that the term was intended to be used in its ordinary sense and that the shotgun here was not loaded..."

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    What does PC 12031 and Clark have to do with PC 171d?
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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    12031 is about having the two items (ammo and gun) 'attached'

    171e is about the same two items 'posessed'

    Huge difference. 171e is essentially the same as at a gun show, posession of the two items together = bad

    Dismissing the State Park issue for a moment, 171e has the same 'loophole' that gunshows do. Two people carry differing calibre handguns while they carry each other's ammo.

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    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    What does PC 12031 and Clark have to do with PC 171d?
    My mistake, that's what I get for posting when I am so tiered I can barely read.

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    Hey Publius,

    Check your personal messages on this blog.

    I am going to attend the Sac Tea Party event.

    I want to "meet-up" with you, if OK.

    And as tothe topic. I think for political reasons and LEO reaons, an empty holster is the way to go. Last year, there were people on the rooftops wearing ninja-swat outfits and glassing the crowd. I assumed they were snipers. You know, us right wing-nuts are dangerous people! Ha-Ha!

    markm

  18. #18
    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    Absolutely, since learning that the state capital is considered a state park (what a joke) I intend to go with an empty holster, my porcupine Gadsden flag, my family, my friends, and any signs we can through together.

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    Publius wrote:
    What does PC 12031 and Clark have to do with PC 171d?
    My mistake, that's what I get for posting when I am so tiered I can barely read.
    Don't worry, I've done the same thing. I suffer from chronic back pain (which often leaves me sleep-deprived for days at a time) and also insomnia. When it comes to brain-dead posting, I hold all the records.


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