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Law Enforcement Open Carry Never Challenged

AL Ranger

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First, as responsible gun owners supporting our God-given rights guaranteed by the US and Alabama stateConstitutions, we should get our terminology right. It come down to one or more of us being interviewed for the nightly news. We need to know guns and our rights.

Second,our rights are God-given, Constitutionally-guaranteed. I stress this for a legal reason. If you say your rights are "constitutional rights", to take them away all they have to do is change the Constitution. If they are God-given, constitutionally guaranteed, then changing the Constitutioncan't not take away your rights since they come from God.

Third, assault weapons are full-automatic. Semi-auto weapons are not assault weapons. The phrase was created to scare the uninformed public. Unfortunately, even so-called professional newscasters don't know the differences either. We need to know what we are talking about if we are going to inform the public.

If there are any other points you think need to be added to this list, please do so!
 

AL Ranger

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The citizens I've seen in the You Tube videos against OC already think we are "stupid, showboating rednecks". If you walk around with greasy hair, a dirty John Deere hat and "wife-beater" T-shirt with a gun on your hip, it isn't going to help the cause any.
 

eye95

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To your first post, we are the choir.

To your second, wearing handguns an going on the news IS is helping. More and more people are seeing it happen. More and more people are choosing to do it.

The main reason people don't is a fear of being perceived a wacko. All the more reason for us to seem as normal as possible, just exercising a right just as routinely as we speak freely.
 

SlackwareRobert

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Worst part of a Badge, is the fact it would make people think the training the
state gave them to get the badge makes them a safe responsible gun owner.
Lets face it, government panders to the lowest filth, not the highest ideals.

Now I wouldn't mind the option of having a federal carry anywhere anytime
anyhow badge myself. Would even join BHO's civilian army for it. :lol:

So we don't need badges, we need trained officers to respect the law.:cuss:
 

Monkeytown

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Wetumpka, AL, ,
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SlackwareRobert wrote:
Worst part of a Badge, is the fact it would make people think the training the
state gave them to get the badge makes them a safe responsible gun owner
.
Lets face it, government panders to the lowest filth, not the highest ideals.

Now I wouldn't mind the option of having a federal carry anywhere anytime
anyhow badge myself. Would even join BHO's civilian army for it. :lol:

So we don't need badges, we need trained officers to respect the law.:cuss:

My instructor at a recent NRA course I took said that LEO's were some of the most unsafe gun handlers out there. They seem to think that their limited firearms training makes them experts.

MT
 

Hollowpoint38

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A sandwich made of knuckles, Hoover, Alabama
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Yes. Most of our LEO's think they are experts with a weapon but I'm not so sure about that. I could probably shoot better. If the police can't shoot as well as the citizens, why do so many people have a problem with OCers in the area? We might be the ones saving them!

Bad shooting examples below:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/29/earlyshow/main6343009.shtml

http://article.wn.com/view/2010/03/23/Cop_kills_colleague_in_accidental_shooting/

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/jersey_city_man_is_shot_by_cop.html

http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5179


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292168,00.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RhossH1bm4&feature=player_embedded
 

Citizen

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AL Ranger wrote:
It's not hard to imagine the "anti-OC" group complaining about the OC of Alabama citizens as being "dangerous", but they have no problem with the OC of LEO's throughout the state.

Perhaps the best use of LEO open carry would be to use it "box in" the other argument.

Open carry cannot possibly be dangerous. If it were literally dangerous, then anyone would be justified in fearing for their life around a uniformed cop, and justified in shooting that cop on the spot.

Of course, such a shooting would not be justified. Ergo, open carry is not literally dangerous.

Sorta like the old anti-OC argument, "it scares people." Wait a minute. If I am scaring someone then I should be arrested for brandishing. But, I wasn't brandishing? Oh, well, then, brandishing is the ancient threshold for inducing reasonable fear in another. If I wasn't brandishing, their fear cannot possibly be reaosnable, can it?
 

eye95

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Citizen wrote:
AL Ranger wrote:
It's not hard to imagine the "anti-OC" group complaining about the OC of Alabama citizens as being "dangerous", but they have no problem with the OC of LEO's throughout the state.

Perhaps the best use of LEO open carry would be to use it "box in" the other argument.

Open carry cannot possibly be dangerous. If it were literally dangerous, then anyone would be justified in fearing for their life around a uniformed cop, and justified in shooting that cop on the spot.

Of course, such a shooting would not be justified. Ergo, open carry is not literally dangerous.

Sorta like the old anti-OC argument, "it scares people." Wait a minute. If I am scaring someone then I should be arrested for brandishing. But, I wasn't brandishing? Oh, well, then, brandishing is the ancient threshold for inducing reasonable fear in another. If I wasn't brandishing, their fear cannot possibly be reaosnable, can it?
People who assume that LEOs are safe OCers and citizens are not think that LEOs are better trained and all good guys.

Of course, these are faulty assumptions. LEOs are trained better than some and not as well as others. The vast majority are good guys. A small percentage are not. However, whenever you see a citizen, you can be almost certain he is a good guy. Bad guys carry concealed--usually illegally.

From a safety POV, a properly holstered gun is extremely safe, on the hip of a LEO or a citizen.
 

Citizen

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eye95 wrote:
Citizen wrote:
AL Ranger wrote:
It's not hard to imagine the "anti-OC" group complaining about the OC of Alabama citizens as being "dangerous", but they have no problem with the OC of LEO's throughout the state.

Perhaps the best use of LEO open carry would be to use it "box in" the other argument.

Open carry cannot possibly be dangerous. If it were literally dangerous, then anyone would be justified in fearing for their life around a uniformed cop, and justified in shooting that cop on the spot.

Of course, such a shooting would not be justified. Ergo, open carry is not literally dangerous.

Sorta like the old anti-OC argument, "it scares people." Wait a minute. If I am scaring someone then I should be arrested for brandishing. But, I wasn't brandishing? Oh, well, then, brandishing is the ancient threshold for inducing reasonable fear in another. If I wasn't brandishing, their fear cannot possibly be reaosnable, can it?
People who assume that LEOs are safe OCers and citizens are not think that LEOs are better trained and all good guys.

Of course, these are faulty assumptions. LEOs are trained better than some and not as well as others. The vast majority are good guys. A small percentage are not. However, whenever you see a citizen, you can be almost certain he is a good guy. Bad guys carry concealed--usually illegally.

From a safety POV, a properly holstered gun is extremely safe, on the hip of a LEO or a citizen.
Of course, we may be overlooking something. With all the recent videos of police violence, it might be that some people are equating OCing citizens with police.

:)
 

AL Ranger

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Ooooo, ouch! That hurt! Comparing OCers with bad cops? That really hurts, man!LOL!

But I can actually see that happening. After all,a lot of non-gun peoplestill think all "black rifles" are more dangerous thanrifles with wood stocks and forends and they think we have "plastic guns" that get through metal detectors at the airport and a legal gun owner selling his own weapon(s) at a gun show is "loophole"!

We have a lot of work ahead of us!
 

AL Ranger

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Forget about the badges, guys! It's in the AGO 2007-054 opinion that says non-commissioned animal control officers can not have a badge, only an emblem affixed to the uniform showing that they are animal control officers. If the State won't let animal control officers wear a badge, we can't either. The badge signifies a state commissioned officer dutily sworn to carry out the laws of the State for his particular office. This same opinion lists the citizen arrest powers of the citizens of the State.
 

cowboy67

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Opelika, Alabama, USA
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I see security guards wearing badges all the time, they are not duly sworn state officials. There is no law stating you cannot have a badge in possession or wear a badge.

Now, there are laws regarding what people do with the badge. They cannot impersonate, but if you wear a badge and do not act as LEO, well, nothing is wrong other than it is a little strange on the part of the person doing it.

To each his own, if they wanna carry a badge that is on them.
 

Deacon Blues

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The badge idea is nothing new, in fact it gets thrown around in CC circles frequently. In fact, there are probably a few dozen people wandering around with "CC badges" right now. The absurdity of using a badge to call attention to your concealed weapon aside, there are a few problems with this idea.

First there is impersonating an officer. This is not something that cops go around trying to pin on people, but if the shoe fits... Think about it this way, what two things do people most associate with police? The top three would probably be gun, badge, and handcuffs. Having two of those could certainly be misconstrued in an atmosphere where OC is still far from the norm.

Second, the current attitude is that a badge implies competency. As has already been mentioned, that is often not the case, but perception is reality. If we put badges on all the responsible OCers, then we will be merging our reputations with those of law enforcement, as well as with any irresponsible fool who decides to pick one up. In the end, this will only lead to us being discredited by the antics of the reckless, or to instead lend our credibility - undeservedly - to the other badge-wearers.

Finally, issuing badges does not address the real problem of perception. It merely sidesteps the issue by making us look more like the police, who already enjoy immunity from the scrutiny of the general public. We already carry what ought to be the de facto symbol of the armed citizen: the holster. Bad guys don't use holsters because they need to be able to ditch the gun and pretend they never had it; that's hard to do if you're wearing a holster that it fits in. That's one of the reasons Mexican carry is so popular among criminals. A holstered weapon is a pretty sure-fire indicator of good intention, and we should be marketing it as such.

Besides, we wouldn't be able to tell people "we don't need no stinking badges!" :D
 

eye95

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I don't know what a court would do. I suspect it would throw out a case of impersonating an officer if that case were founded solely on a gun and a fake badge. However, LEOs can take action short of arrest (or even effect arrests that later do not end up resulting in conviction), if they believe that a law is being broken.

If you walk around in clothing that looks LEOish, wear a badge, and openly carry a gun, cops are going to stop you. If you don't handle well what will almost surely be found later to be a lawful stop, you may well find your face planted in the ground.

I think wearing a badge is unnecessarily antagonistic towards LEOs. Nothing good can come of it. Many bad things can. It would amount to foolish bravado.
 

bagent

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Kirbinator wrote:
AL Ranger wrote:
That's what I was thinking about. I was in a Huntsville Wal-Mart yesterday and saw an Alabama A&M University security officer, uniform, gun, handcuffsand gun belt, etc. either shopping or walking around. He was talking to people, friends I guess. He's campus security, not a state peace officer.

Most people are scared to see a gun without a badge. That is what causes the people to call the cops, run off to management in stores and restaurants, etc. The A&M cop had no authority outside the University campus, just as a Park Ranger has no authority outside the Park or an animal control officer has outside the performance of his job.

According to Alabama state law, every citizen has the right to effect a citizens arrest upon seeing or having knowledge of a felony, not misdeamors. We have legal powers of arrest and in the wording of the Alabama Constitution (article 1 secton 26, "That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state" we are de facto peace officers.
Double check that before you consider testing his authority. In Alabama, a peace officer anywhere in the state may arrest you for breaking the law, but the charges have to be filed in the jurisdiction that the deviation was committed in. UAH, UAB, UA, etc. receive their charter from the legislature as well, which grants them State of Alabama license plates. If you require further justification, consider that UAB has no fixed campus. And that a state trooper also has State of Alabama license plates.

I used to be employed with the UAB Police Dept. Although not a sworn officer, I was in their Physical Security Division and worked side by side with the sworn officers daily. Just to set the record straight, the "police" officers at UAB are trained at the State Academy and have all the rights and arrest powers of Alabama State Troopers. While they like to keep their work restricted to the campus and the surrounding hospital complexes, they can and have stopped folks on city streets and have worked side by side with B'ham PB and surrounding communities.

If I remember correctly, most if not all college campus police depts are all trained to the same level. Security officers are NOT normally allowed to be armed so I question the validity of AL Rangers statement about the A & M officer that he saw.
 

bagent

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cowboy67 wrote:
I see security guards wearing badges all the time, they are not duly sworn state officials. There is no law stating you cannot have a badge in possession or wear a badge.

Now, there are laws regarding what people do with the badge. They cannot impersonate, but if you wear a badge and do not act as LEO, well, nothing is wrong other than it is a little strange on the part of the person doing it.

To each his own, if they wanna carry a badge that is on them.

Cowboy,

I have been a Security Professional for over 23 years and have to say that I can't disagree with you more. A Security professional, or guard as you state, will only be in uniform only while on duty. While on duty, on the way to or from the place of duty is all fine and good. However, you will likely NEVER see a Security professional who is not on duty wearing a badge while in civilian clothes. The only time that I have done this was when I was actually working for a company and was in plain clothes and had my badge worn on my belt. Even then, I had to have a letter from my company stating that I was working plain clothes and that was my only protection from any law suit that I was impersonating or trying to impersonate an LEO.

There have been several persons arrested just for wearing a badge and charges have been upheld for impersonating an LEO. My thoughts on this is to just not take the chance. And just for info sake, you don't have to act like an LEO to be accused of impersonating one.

Just my .02
 

Kirbinator

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bagent wrote:
I used to be employed with the UAB Police Dept. Although not a sworn officer, I was in their Physical Security Division and worked side by side with the sworn officers daily. Just to set the record straight, the "police" officers at UAB are trained at the State Academy and have all the rights and arrest powers of Alabama State Troopers. While they like to keep their work restricted to the campus and the surrounding hospital complexes, they can and have stopped folks on city streets and have worked side by side with B'ham PB and surrounding communities.

If I remember correctly, most if not all college campus police depts are all trained to the same level. Security officers are NOT normally allowed to be armed so I question the validity of AL Rangers statement about the A & M officer that he saw.
All law enforcement officers in the state of Alabama are required to be APOST-certified. From the Deputy Sheriff, Reserve State Troopers, Marshals, Constable and so on -- all must be certified by the board. Officers who move into the state may not have to attend the academy at Montgomery provided they attended one elsewhere. But in general, all law-enforcement (peace) officers in the state have attended the academy.

Of course, security guards are a different matter altogether.
 
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