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Thread: Going Armed To The Terror Of The Public (MUST READ)

  1. #1
    bgreene89
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    Hey just wanted to post up here something that I learned while taking my Concealed Carry class yesterday. I was told that we should keep our guns covered up at all times (if we have a concealed carry permit) while carrying in somewhere. To avoid getting charged with going armed to the terror of the public. Because even though we may be in Mcdonalds, Bojangles,Grocery store, or where ever a sign is not prohibiting weapons and we are open carrying the law can't do nothing to us. Unless the owner or one of the staff asks us to leave then we have to if not we can be charged with trespassing but if they don't ask us to and someone just calls or were in a parking lot here is what can happen. A person calls the law or says to the law enforcement officer " I fear for my life", or just isn't comfortable with it they can say, "well mam or sir there is nothing I can do about it but you can go take out a warrant on him or her (the person OCing) for going armed to the terror of the public". My instructor which taught me my CC class is on Pitt County Sherriff's office and he sayed everyday they get calls and warrants issued for that but 99% of the time the DA will dismiss it as soon as it gets to the court room and the judge will never hear it. So I don't know if you would get locked up or not, but im not wanting to find out the hard way. I've never open carryed in a building only around my property and in my vehicle.


    By the way guys the CC class taught me alot of stuff I didn't know especially about the laws. And would be a great thing to take just to know the law even if you didn't want to get a CC permit its not a bad idea at all!




    Thanks,
    Blake

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    Blake,

    Read some case law. Going armed to terror the public doesn't mean walking around with a handgun in the holster.

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    Blake, "CC instructors" are a source of more bull@#$% than not. One actually told me when I lived in houston that I could carry my gun on a commercial airplane as long as I did not fly out of the state, such as flying from Houston to Dallas because "my permit was good in the whole state of Texas. To my credit, I was more educated than to try that. I'm sure American Airlines would've been amused.

    Downloasd and read STATE V. HUNTLEY. The judge in that case stated explicity: 1) Simply wearing a gun in a holster in a peacable manner is not GATTOTP. 2) A man has every right to carry his handgun for any lawful purpose, recreation or pleasure. 3) It is the evil intent that constitutes GATTOTP.

    I also recommend you donwload the NC flyer from the NC forum. When you run across the cop who informs you that he "could take you to jail for GATTOP" be polite, say "yes sir", and request a supervisor. In the whole 16 weeks of BLET they spend about 15 minutes talking about carrying handguns, so most of the rookies and newer guys will be uneducated. Most of the older and experienced cops will have found out by nowthat OCing is legal in NC.

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    +1 on the flier.

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    I'm starting to feel like a scratched record.

    If you want to know why CHP instructors continue to spew this false information about Open Carry, you need to:

    FOLLOW THE MONEY...

    CHP instructors have a vested interest in promoting CONCEALED carry, and convincing people that CC is the "only way" to carry a firearm legally. If everyone who wanted to carry knew about OC, and practiced it, there would be a LOT of CHP instructors who would be filing for unemployment. By convincing people that OC will get you in trouble with the police, they are creating an artificial reality wherein you will actually believe that OC is morally wrong, illegal, socially unacceptable, or otherwise bad.

    Nothing could be further from the truth, at least in about 95% of the state of NC. Unless you live in one of the cities with notoriously heavy-handed LEA's or Unconstitutional laws (like Jacksonville, Durham, or Cary), the fact of the matter is that OC is perfectly legal in most locations, and in most venues (with a few exceptions like places that serve alcohol, or charge admission, or are posted, etc).

    Walking down the street in most of NC with a firearm properly holstered is NOT illegal, and DOES NOT constitute GAttTotP. That violation isn't even a statutory law--it is common law, based on a VERY old English Common Law from the 1400's. It is rarely applied to someone who is simply OCing, and in the VERY few instances where it is, it is almost ALWAYS thrown out by the judge because the case almost never meets the requirements of the violation.

    You see, the key facet of the GAttTotP violation is the INTENT of the person carrying the weapon. It's not HOW you are carrying it, or even what you are carrying. It is the INTENT of the person carrying on which the applicability of the GAttTotP violation hinges.

    If you are carrying for self-defense, or because it is your right under the US and NC State Constitutions, or because you are heading to the range, or because you just like the way it balanced the weight of the wallet or keys you're carrying in your back pocket, then GAttTotP DOES NOT apply.

    ONLY if you are carrying with the expressed INTENT of causing terror in a specific person or the general public, does GAttTotP apply.

    And just because some worked-up soccer mom doesn't like the idea of a citizen being able to protect themself and makes a MWAG call because your OC'd firearm makes her "uncomfortable", as long as you are polite, conducting yourself in a cordial and lawful manner, and are just minding your own business, GAttTotP DOES NOT apply. Even if she IS terrified, it was not your INTENT to terrorize her (or anyone else). You cannot be held responsible for the misguided, hysterical perceptions of other people, or for the ignorance of the law of other people, and you cannot control how some brainwashed nanny-state sheeple will interpret your lawful, Constitutionally-protected activity. Their anti-gun hysteria DOES NOT constitute a valid GAttTotP charge. Period.

    Here is an illustrative parallel:
    A lot of gang members wear black pants, white t-shirts, and red hats. If I was to walk down the street dressed in black jeans, a white t-shirt, and a red baseball cap, and some soccer mom thought (after reading some overblown article about gangs on the internet) that I just MUST be a gang-banger because I was dressed in similar "colors", and she dialed 911 and told the dispatcher that she just saw a gang member walking down the street, they would ask her how she knew I was a gang member. When she described my clothes, the dispatcher would then ask her if I was dealing drugs, or waving a gun around, or flashing gang signs, or whatever. When she said "no" the dispatcher would probably laugh at her and tell her to up her Prozac prescription.
    The same SHOULD go for OC. It's all about INTENT. If you do not INTEND to create terror or fear, or present a menacing presence, then GAttTotP DOES NOT APPLY.

    Period. End of discussion.

    Cops will throw around the GAttTotP charge when they don't like OC. They are ESPECIALLY prone to use this tactic if you are young, or by yourself, or you are non-white. DON'T believe it. If they REALLY thought you were guilty of GAttTotP, you would have been ordered onto the ground when they first showed up for the encounter. If a LEO approaches you and doesn't have his weapon drawn, then he doesn't REALLY feel like you are dangerous. He may not LIKE the fact that you are carrying, and he may throw around the GAttTotP charge to try and convince you to stop OCing. But if he REALLY thought you had done something illegal, you would be in handcuffs within a few seconds of the initial encounter, not standing around discussing the nuances of the wording and interpretation of NC Case Law and Statutory Law.

    All this said, it should be remembered that an encounter with an LEO over a MWAG call is NOT the time or the place to discuss your rights. The cop has an immutable position of power in such encounters. Don't volunteer information. If you are on-foot (not driving a vehicle) all you are required to do under NC law is identify yourself verbally. If he asks for an ID, it's probably a good idea to show him your DL, but there is NO legal requirement for you to do so. And remember this is an investigative stop, NOT a courtroom. Cops don't know the law well enough to argue it, and will generally only get pissed off if you try. That's what lawyers and judges get paid the big bucks (and go to Law School) for.

    If a cop wants to overstep his bounds and charge you with a bogus violation, then that is what the courts are for. And that is DEFINITELY what Federal Civil Rights lawsuits are for...

    I think just about EVERY person who does CHP training (not just in NC, but in MOST states) tells people that OC will get you in trouble. But you need to remember that they have a vested interest in promoting CC-only carry. They have spent several hundred dollars to get their NRA Instructors Certifications, and about $100 for the NC State CHP Instructor certification (and that is an ANNUAL fee to maintain). They need people to be afraid of OC, to keep their businesses going, and the CHP-training business can be VERY lucrative if you are a well-know and respected instructor.

    Don't get me wrong. I have a NC CHP and a PA non-res LTCF. I'll probably be getting a VA CHP this summer as well, and maybe a UT permit too, if I can afford it and can scedule a class between grad school and family activities. But I don't have those permits because I prefer CC. I only CC when the weather is nasty, or when my wife is acting cranky about me OCing (which is becoming less and less often, thank god), or when I'm "dressed up" and wearing a suit, or a sports coat. I also have those permits because I travel a lot, and it makes life easier for interstate travel while carrying in my vehicle. And it also is my way of boosting the statistics regarding the number of issued permits in the states where I regularly travel, because the more permits that are issued, the stronger our position is. Ever single CC permit that gets issued helps our cause! I recommend that EVERYONE who carries and can afford it get their CHP, if for no other reasons that 1) it makes carrying in a car MUCH easier, 2) it boosts the permit stats, and 3) the training DOES have a lot of good legal info that you should know anyway, with regard to self-defense and your rights and legal obligations.

    But I OC about 90% of the time. And I've NEVER had a problem with an LEO. I've OCed in Raleigh, Fayetteville, Jacksonville, Washington, Greenville, Dunn, all up and down I-95, as well as in WV, PA, VA and OH. And I have never once had an issue with a cop.

    Because in NC (and VA, and PA, and WV, and a whole mess of other states), OC is perfectly legal. Period. End of discussion...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    +1 to everything Dreamer said. If you are black, young, tatted and pierced, or dress like a hood you will probably getquestioned. I've OC'ed for decades and have never been questioned about OC'ing by a cop. Most of the cops just nod, say Hi, or ask about your piece and how you like it and how it handles. Like Dreamer said, if you do get questioned, don't be a smartass or try to quote law and statutes. Cops get told several times a day that "I'm gonna sue your ass off" and "the law says yada yada yada". Ask for a supervisor and be polite. If the supervisor is no help just go along with the deal taking mental notes and peruse it later. Every soldier knows the advantage is to him that knows to pick the time and place of the battle. On the street with a gun and an ignorant cop isn't to your tactical advantage.









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    bgreene89 wrote:
    Hey just wanted to post up here something that I learned while taking my Concealed Carry class yesterday. I was told that we should keep our guns covered up at all times (if we have a concealed carry permit) while carrying in somewhere. To avoid getting charged with going armed to the terror of the public. Because even though we may be in Mcdonalds, Bojangles,Grocery store, or where ever a sign is not prohibiting weapons and we are open carrying the law can't do nothing to us. Unless the owner or one of the staff asks us to leave then we have to if not we can be charged with trespassing but if they don't ask us to and someone just calls or were in a parking lot here is what can happen. A person calls the law or says to the law enforcement officer " I fear for my life", or just isn't comfortable with it they can say, "well mam or sir there is nothing I can do about it but you can go take out a warrant on him or her (the person OCing) for going armed to the terror of the public". My instructor which taught me my CC class is on Pitt County Sherriff's office and he sayed everyday they get calls and warrants issued for that but 99% of the time the DA will dismiss it as soon as it gets to the court room and the judge will never hear it. So I don't know if you would get locked up or not, but im not wanting to find out the hard way. I've never open carryed in a building only around my property and in my vehicle.


    By the way guys the CC class taught me alot of stuff I didn't know especially about the laws. And would be a great thing to take just to know the law even if you didn't want to get a CC permit its not a bad idea at all!




    Thanks,
    Blake
    Blake,

    Please review the following to obtain a better understanding of your RIGHTS!!


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    Also review:

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    GATTTOTP is a ploy that folks who don't like OC use to get you to CC. They may be cops, instructors, other gun folks, or whoever. They don't like OC and use their "authority" to scare you with GATTTOTP.

    Looks like it worked.

    FWIW, my instructor told us OC was perfectly legal. Never brought up GATTTOTP. The coinstructor, Alexander Cty Sheriff, did not mention it either. They both stated they preferred to CC. But did not get into OC bashing. The Cop did talk about MWAG calls and having to possible deal with that.

    I'll second state v huntley. After reading it explain to me why OC is legal if noone calls the cops, and all of a sudden my actions are illegal if someone does not like it. When nothing I am doing has changed. If my actions are not illegal, how can someone's perception make them illegal?

  10. #10
    bgreene89
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    Hey fellow open carrier's I know its not illegal to OC in the state of North Carolina, because its in our amendments. But, however I am just not wanting to go through the whole warrant going armed to the terror of the public. Because I am currently going to college to be a game warden, or state highway patrol and not wanting no gun charge on my record when I go apply for the job position.


    Nothing against OCing whatsoever but just want to make sure I keep my record clean!




    Thanks,
    Blake

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    It's not illegal to OC in NC, period. Doesn't matter how someone feels about it.

    It's nice living in a society where they don't have rules that say what you can do, only what you can't do. There is no law stating that we can NOT OC at all, therefore it is completely legal. End of discussion, IMO. Doesn't matter what Jane Doe at the other end of the store thinks/feels/acts about it.

    If you do get stopped by cops, have a voice recorder, and politely inform them that you are not breaking any laws. There are several posts in this forum about LEO confrontations, it would help reading up on those.

    OC vs. CC is a preference, thats it. I OC for two reasons: 1) I can't afford to purchase my CCW permit yet, and 2) You can't really conceal a full sized 1911 easily.... How you carry, what you carry, and why you carry are all personal reasons. Just make sure that before you carry a deadly weapon AT ALL, is answer this one question:

    Are you willing to take a life to protect yours or your family's?

    Know the law, thats your best asset in any confrontation.

    Be polite.
    Be professional.

    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

    Vice President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, ECU Chapter

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    If you abide by all applicable NC Firearms Laws you have nothing to fear! AS long as you conduct yourself accordingly, I refuse to worry about getting a gun charge on my record.





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    Blake,

    What ammendment would that be? Never seen an ammendment that mentioned OC.

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    Shawn wrote:
    Blake,

    Read some case law. Going armed to terror the public doesn't mean walking around with a handgun in the holster.
    See also State v. Kerner(NC 1921).

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    bgreene89
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    TFED12 wrote:
    Blake,

    What ammendment would that be? Never seen an ammendment that mentioned OC.
    Sorry I meant to say we have the right to bare arms 2nd ammendment.

    Fellow open carriers the other reason I don't open carry is because I am 20 years old, yes the pistol I carry is registered to my dad. And we run a gun shop outside of Ayden, NC. I have checked on this law time after time, and yet I find you can open carry at the age of 18, but yet if i go ask a sherriff or LEO about it they argue the point with me. And say something like 21 21 21 I reply back NO 21 to obtain a CC permit or to obtain a pistol purchase permit there is some LEO's out there that do not understand the law on OC and it pisses me off thats why I don't do it. Plus I only have till Oct,02 when I turn 21!

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    you can lawfully own a gun once you turn 18. you just can't buy ammo for it until you turn 21. at 21, you can purchase your own gun.

    nc law states that you can oc when you can lawfully own a gun. therefore, you can OC when you are >18 years old. end of story.

    in my experience, i never ask a cop anything regarding the law. If you really want to know, a forum like this one works, or even sending a message to a lawyer would work.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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    Blake,

    Per NC Firearms Law, you may purcase a rifle or shotgun at the age of 18. You CANNOT purchase, own nor possess a handgun. There are a few exceptions allowed. But based on my interpertation, if a person is under the age of 21 they can only OC a rifle or shotgun.

    JMHO!





    VI. AGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PURCHASE AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS

    North Carolina law does not currently address specific age requirements for the purchase of weapons. Rather, it looks to the federal standards for such restrictions. Under federal law, 18 U.S.C. ┬ž 922(b)(1), federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to persons under the age of 21. Further, all other purchasers of shotguns and rifles are required to be at least 18 years of age.

    North Carolina General Statute ┬ž 14-269.7 provides that it is a misdemeanor for any person under the age of 18 to possess or carry a handgun. A handgun is defined as a firearm that has

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    I'm 19. Bought a Smith & Wesson 4006 about a month ago. Open carry it whenever I can (student at NC State keeps me from carrying during the week).

    You can buy private party as long as you're older than 18. Same goes for carrying, just be older than 18. If you don't want to OC that's your preference, but you can. You can also buy a pistol in your name, you just can't buy it from a gun shop or any FFL dealer.

    If you've got any questions, just ask. Another user on here (Hotrod) has the same situation and is knowledgeable on the subject as well.

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    calynn wrote:
    I'm 19. Bought a Smith & Wesson 4006 about a month ago. Open carry it whenever I can (student at NC State keeps me from carrying during the week).

    You can buy private party as long as you're older than 18. Same goes for carrying, just be older than 18. If you don't want to OC that's your preference, but you can. You can also buy a pistol in your name, you just can't buy it from a gun shop or any FFL dealer.

    If you've got any questions, just ask. Another user on here (Hotrod) has the same situation and is knowledgeable on the subject as well.
    I'm at NC State too, what year are you? Sorry for hijacking the topic...

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    federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to persons under the age of 21


    Doesn't say anything about owning a gun, just purchasing. To own a gun you must be 18. Words and how they are used is important.

    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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    RegalNC wrote:
    Blake,

    ┬*Per NC Firearms Law, you may purcase a rifle or shotgun at the age of 18. You CANNOT purchase, own nor possess a handgun. There are a few exceptions allowed. But based on my interpertation, if a person is under the age of 21 they can only OC a rifle or shotgun.

    JMHO!

    ┬*

    ┬*

    VI. AGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PURCHASE AND POSSESSION┬*┬*┬* OF WEAPONS

    North Carolina law does not currently address specific age requirements for the purchase of weapons.┬* Rather, it looks┬* to the federal standards for such restrictions. Under federal law, 18 U.S.C. ┬ž 922(b)(1), federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to persons under the age of 21.┬* Further, all other purchasers of shotguns and rifles are required to be at least 18 years of age.┬*

    North Carolina General Statute ┬ž 14-269.7 provides that it is a misdemeanor for any person under the age of 18 to possess or carry a handgun.┬* A handgun is defined as a firearm that has
    Regal, first if there are exceptions then it is not as cut and dry as CANNOT. Second, read the last paragraph of your post. Notice it says "under 18". That's not an exception, it's the law. No mention of 18-21 not owning or possessing a handgun. it's not terribly common, but it happens.

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    ^^ He's right. 18-21 can buy and carry a handgun in NC. To buy, one must buy from a private party and be issued a purchase permit from the sheriff in your county, as I did. I'll post a pic of the handgun purchase permit that my Sheriff issued me if I have to, to prove it to the non-believers.

    Let's not over complicate things here.

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    calynn wrote:
    ^^ He's right. 18-21 can buy and carry a handgun in NC. To buy, one must buy from a private party and be issued a purchase permit from the sheriff in your county, as I did. I'll post a pic of the handgun purchase permit that my Sheriff issued me if I have to, to prove it to the non-believers.

    Let's not over complicate things here.
    I stand corrected! Dialogue is a wonderful thing.

  24. #24
    bgreene89
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    Hey again fellow open carryiers, everything that all of you have posted has been a huge help and even the laws all of you have posted are all true. Yes in the state of North Carolina you have to be 21 years of age to buy a handgun from a Federal Lisence Dealer. However if you buy one from an indiviudaul you must obtain a pistol purchase permit or a CWP basically saying you still have to be 21. But if your guardian or buddy or whoever buys a handgun,rilfe,shotgun he or she can lend it to you as long as you are 18 years of age. But if you do buy a pistol and your not 21 don't worry your not in trouble because you didn't sell it. And even if you did sell it and your not 21 that's okay too because there is no law saying you have to be 21 to sale a handgun to a person. Just make sure you sale handguns to a person at least 21 years of age or a FFL dealer's staff and you"ll be okay. However I buy handguns everyday through the gun shop (because I am allowed to do that by N.C. and A.T.F. law) the store manager the law is tricky in the way it works!


    I look forward to Open Carrying one day when I get a badge in October
    And I will look out for all of you Open Carriers.( In A Good Way!)

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    bgreene89,

    There are a couple of guys here and other sites I am on that have received Purchase Permits from their sheriff's and been under 21. There is no mention of being 21 to receive a PPP in the GS statutes. Check here.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...GS_14-404.html

    It seems that you are missing the fact that it is legal, if you can get your sheriff to issue a PPP to you and you buy it from an individual. You cannot buy from an FFL, even with the PPP, if you are under 21.

    So it's not about "skirting" the law. It's about having your sheriff follow the letter of the law. If you buy a pistol from an individual without having a permit you would be breaking the law. It may be hard to prove, but still illegal none the less.

    Or maybe I am misreading your last post.

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