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    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.

    Get his gun confiscated?

    arrested/detained?



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    revolverrandy wrote:
    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.

    Get his gun confiscated?

    arrested/detained?

    Any or all of the above. Just ask Jesus Gonzalez, Brad Krause, Frank Hannan-Rock, Travis Yates... perhaps others. All were arrested/cited, all but Travis had his gun confiscated.
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    All were arrested/cited, all but Travis had his gun confiscated.
    Were the confiscated guns eventually returned?

    Were any and all of the charges (if any) dropped?

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    phred wrote:
    All were arrested/cited, all but Travis had his gun confiscated.
    Were the confiscated guns eventually returned?

    Were any and all of the charges (if any) dropped?
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...t=frank+racine

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/39722082.html

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...ighlight=yates

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...light=woodmans


    These links should help with an over view of what is going on in Wisconsin.

    Once there, you will find other links to follow as well.
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

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    Regular Member Brad_Krause's Avatar
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    The answer is subjective. "Almost shot" is bad. So is:
    - arrest on felony charges
    - permanent loss of income
    - labeled a criminal by family and friends
    - loss of relationships
    - loss of freedom and suspension of rights
    - emotional and physical duress
    - loss of reputation/credibility
    - loss of property
    - loss of the time spent while fighting criminal charges
    - court and related costs
    - unwanted change of address
    - continued harassment
    - unmanageable stress leading to murder/suicide

    All of these happened because of bullies, bigots, prejudice, hate, false notions, lies, things most people don't ever imagine will happen, especially not to them, because there is no reason any of it should.

    Things do not happen independently, and the results are not confined by state borders. The situation tends to get worse if someone actually has to use their gun in a defensive situation. Other than being alive, there are usually few positives to being a victim.

    Carrying a gun in public is not "cool," it adds additional responsibility.

    Brad Krause
    Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed

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    Jeez Brad you are a little beam of sunshine aren't you?

    The OP's question was not that complicated:

    revolverrandy wrote:
    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.

    Get his gun confiscated?

    arrested/detained?


    Randy, when I was arrested back in the 70's for OC in downtown La Crosse I was arrested and put in jail for the night and my .38 special was confiscated but I was never charged or tried and because I did not know the law I let it slide.

    Nowadays the perception of law enforcement has changed and even though I have carried downtown on multiple occasions I have never been stopped or questioned.

    And I will disagree with Brad on this final point... OCing with a fine pistol on your hip is very cool. And exercising your constitutional rights in the face of ignorant opposition is even cooler.



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    Shotgun wrote:
    revolverrandy wrote:
    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.

    Get his gun confiscated?

    arrested/detained?

    Any or all of the above. Just ask Jesus Gonzalez, Brad Krause, Frank Hannan-Rock, Travis Yates... perhaps others. All were arrested/cited, all but Travis had his gun confiscated.
    Yah, but thanks to those guys and thier fight, the climate is much different. We had a young man arrested in Eau Claire last November for DC and CCW. Three weeks later, the DA calls him, invites him into his office, to aplogize, return his gun and knives and stated no charges will be filed. Well, the DA got the memo, and after this mans arrest, so did the entire police dept.

    AND with all the the news coverage from across the nation, it is indeed a different climate.

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    Spartacus wrote:
    Jeez Brad you are a little beam of sunshine aren't you?

    The OP's question was not that complicated:

    revolverrandy wrote:
    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.

    Get his gun confiscated?

    arrested/detained?

    *

    Randy, when I was arrested back in the 70's for OC in downtown La Crosse I was arrested and put in jail for the night and my .38 special was confiscated but I was never charged or tried and because I did not know the law I let it slide.

    Nowadays the perception of law enforcement has changed and even though I have carried downtown on multiple occasions I have never been stopped or questioned.

    And I will disagree with Brad on this final point... OCing with a fine pistol on your hip is very cool. And exercising your constitutional rights in the face of ignorant opposition is even cooler.

    Agreed!

    I'm paraphrasing Clint Smith here: "Life is to short to carry an ugly gun."
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

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    Regular Member Brad_Krause's Avatar
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    Spartacus wrote:
    Jeez Brad you are a little beam of sunshine aren't you?

    The OP's question was not that complicated:

    revolverrandy wrote:
    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.
    The answer deserved some thought. History can be learned from, or repeated, and it seemed appropriate to not sugar-coat the reply.

    Brad Krause
    Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed

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    Brad_Krause wrote:
    Spartacus wrote:
    Jeez Brad you are a little beam of sunshine aren't you?

    The OP's question was not that complicated:

    revolverrandy wrote:
    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.
    The answer deserved some thought. History can be learned from, or repeated, and it seemed appropriate to not sugar-coat the reply.

    Brad Krause
    Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed
    I suspect that being on the receiving end of history, one may have a somewhat colored outlook. Quite understandable and correct. If we are not to repeat the past, we must remember it. Or help others to remember.
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

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    Regular Member Brad_Krause's Avatar
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    Actually, I was detailing the experiences of others who stood up for our rights, including Meleanie Hain whom I will always remember.

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    Brad_Krause wrote:
    Actually, I was detailing the experiences of others who stood up for our rights, including Meleanie Hain whom I will always remember.
    Agreed. .
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

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    Brad_Krause wrote:
    Actually, I was detailing the experiences of others who stood up for our rights, including Meleanie Hain whom I will always remember.

    A nice lady who had a fcuked-up husband. She was not killed for her stance on OC.

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...m_is_shot.html

    So what in the hell does this have to do with the OP's original question, Brad? Or do you just delight in fear-mongering?

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    Spartacus wrote:
    Brad_Krause wrote:
    Actually, I was detailing the experiences of others who stood up for our rights, including Meleanie Hain whom I will always remember.
    A nice lady who had a fcuked-up husband. She was not killed for her stance on OC.

    So what in the hell does this have to do with the OP's original question, Brad? Or do you just delight in fear-mongering?
    Are you an authority on the subject? Did you know her personally? Are you saying the stress and changes in her life from the situation relating to open carry were completely compartmentalized by all parties involved and had no effect outside of providing interviews?

    Carrying a gun has intended and unintended consequences. Many people have had numerous positive experiences, and quite a few have had experiences with severe negative impact.

    Attacking a person for providing a well-informed factual answer you are not happy with serves little purpose. When someone asks "so whats the best thing that has occurred..." will you attack those who respond with answers you do not approve of?

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    In my observation going way back Brad tends to be a fear monger.

    I think he thinks it will drive people to his training course, but thats only a guess. I've never figured out his motivations though I think its fair game to share things Brad has shared with me.

    Brad thought open-carry picnics were a bad idea. Strongly frowned upon them and when some of us were trying diligently to organize them, Brad sent PM's around to people who expressed interest in attending discouraging attendance. We ignored Brad's attempts to derail these events and people held them anyway... to GREAT public awareness success by the way: The positive media attention brought the issue front and center and raised public OC awareness to a new level.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hnOI0fWXNc

    A few days after the AG memo Brad called me and suggested that I "lay low" and not speak to the media. I ignored his suggestion and a day later filmed a hidden-camera "Open-carry in the grocery store" piece with CH. 4 that brought a great deal of awareness to the issue.

    Brad's case in West Allis also brought a huge amount of awareness to the issue. Arguably, I think it could have brought a great deal more if people involved had been willing to use PR a bit more to their advantage.

    I respect that everyone has a different perspective on how to advance gun rights in Wisconsin. But it seems to me that Brad often leaps across the fine-line between being realistic and fear-mongering.

    The threat title was posed "worst case scenario" which obviously has an open-ended answer...

    The worst case scenario of sitting on your front porch drinking lemonade is that a 747 could fall out of the sky and squash you into your foundation... Of course that isn't realistic.

    Thankfully Randy further qualified his thread title by stating:

    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally opn carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.
    Obviously the answer to this question is also subjective. Brad claimed his arrest ruined his business among other things. How much that is true is a matter of judgement.

    It hasn't yet been mentioned, but one of the co-plaintiffs in Wisconsin Carry's GFSZ lawsuit is Dave Bernson. He was arrested, spend the night in jail, his gun was confiscated and he has not yet gotten it back. It remains illegally seized by the City of Milwaukee and Police Department (coming up on a year)

    So Randy, while the reality of life itself poses tremendous risk. Lets face it... LIVING is quite dangerous, there is a very realistic answer to your question and its two-fold.

    First, the worst that has happened in Wisconsin POST AG memo is a person was arrested, spent several hours in jail, gun was confiscated, and released without being charged. BOTH co-plaintiffs in our lawsuit suffered that fate. (Frank in Racine and Dave in Milwaukee) Frank got his gun back within a week or so, Dave has not yet gotten his gun back. We obtained a large damage award for Frank for his night in jail and illegal arrest. Dave's case is still in the legal process.

    Second, the reality is that hundreds, if not thousands of people open-carry in Wisconsin every single day. Every week there are thousands of open-carry occurrences. Grocery stores, walking the dog, going to the bank, going to work, in large metropolitan areas, and in rural areas. In suburbs, and in the woods. Of those THOUSANDS of open-carry instances every week, we have just a handful of people who were illegally harassed. I think those odds speak for themselves.

    If the motivation for your question is to assess what the worst possible thing that can happen from law enforcement while OC'ing is... If your concern is the worst possible scenario, you may not want to OC (and you may not want to drive a car to work for fear of an accident, heck, you may not want to go to work because we know people can be wrongfully accused of sexual harassment, you may not want to leave your house for fear of being assaulted out in public, you may not want to stay in your house for fear of being assaulted at home... Well... You get the idea)

    life is a risk. there are no absolutes. You must decide for yourself what level or risk you are willing to take in your life. I do think its safe to say that moms, daughters, husbands, wives, school teachers, executives, doctors, lawyers, blue-collar and white-collar, old and young and everything in between open-carry on a daily basis in Wisconsin. ymmv
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    just beautiful, thank you WCI Chair

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    Good Answer! If you want to live in fear then you will fear everything. There is a risk and a reward in everything we do in our daily lives!

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    When answering questions, informing people of only positive results of carrying lethal force in public is irresponsible; there have been negative outcomes, and that was the focus of the question. There is no need to berate any individual for an accurate answer.

    There are many positive aspects of carrying a sidearm in public, as I explained to a group of people last night. I try to answer questions as time allows and don't skip some because I wish the answer was different; if we learn from negative outcomes we can minimize or avoid another bad result.


    As to the personal attack, that can be dealt with under its own topic.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman wrote:
    In my observation going way back Brad tends to be a fear monger.

    I think he thinks it will drive people to his training course, but thats only a guess
    Thanks for the straight dope Nik. My respect for you and the board of directors of Wi Carry Inc. grows daily.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman wrote:

    A few days after the AG memo Brad called me and suggested that I "lay low" and not speak to the media.
    He requested the same from me, and that I not open carry while something took place in the legislature.

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    As to the personal attack, that can be dealt with under its own topic.
    Not a personal attack, sorry if it was taken as such. Rather, just an honest rebuttal to the tone and perspective in your post backed up with the context of your previous actions that you felt were best for advancing right in Wisconsin.

    I don't consider it a person attack to express that you and I have often shared far different approaches to the open-carry topic and how best to 'move the ball forward'. We are adults here. We can share these differences in public. I express my opinions and conclusions as opinions and conclusions, but I also express fact as fact. If you dispute the facts I present, please counter them.

    I don't think this is the place to spread fear that may discourage people from exercising their rights. You presented a pretty unrealistic (but still statistically existent) set of circumstances. I put that in perspective.
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    The original question was what is the worst case, and I think Brad answered pretty well; although he could have explained what he ment by some of them because someone new to OCDO wouldn't know what he was talking about.



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    Hillmann wrote:
    The original question was what is the worst case, and I think Brad answered pretty well; although he could have explained what he ment by some of them because someone new to OCDO wouldn't know what he was talking about.
    The original question:

    so whats the worst thing that has occurred so far to a person who was legally open carrying in wisconsin,meaning,someone who was doing everything legal and by the book,stopped by the law.
    Since the AG memo which was a watershed moment, I would respectfully ask that in the interest of honesty and disclosure anyone who claims that IN Wisconsin, since the AG Memo someone has been lawfully OC'ing and had anyone of the following outcomes please provide an example to back up the statement:

    - arrest on felony charges
    - permanent loss of income
    - labeled a criminal by family and friends
    - loss of relationships
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    - unwanted change of address
    -
    - unmanageable stress leading to murder/suicide
    I'd like to know who was arrested for lawfully OC'ing in Wisconsin who then committed murder/suicide?

    I'd like to know post AG memo who has been LAWFULLY OC'ing in Wisconsin who was arrested on FELONY charges.

    I'd like to know post AG memo who has had permanent loss if income from lawfully OC'ing in Wisconsin.

    I'd like to know post AG memo who in Wisconsin was lawfully open-carrying, arrested, and labeled a criminal by their family and friends.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    Brad_Krause wrote:
    Attacking a person for providing a well-informed factual answer you are not happy with serves little purpose. When someone asks "so whats the best thing that has occurred..." will you attack those who respond with answers you do not approve of?
    Your "well-informed factual answers" statement reminds me a lot of what I hear from the liberal media when they are trying to put a positive spin on the negative politics of the day. The only difference is that you are putting a horribly negative spin on what could and should be a positive experience for an OCer.

    For my part even though I never "attacked" you I feel you deserve a good ass-kicking but it seems that Nik has that well in hand so I will step aside and let the big guy handle you.

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    I would just like to take a moment to thank Brad Krause for the wake up call. It was his story on the news that woke me up to my rights.

    I would also like to take a moment to thank Brad for showing up the most of the Greenfield Board meetings. The first meeting we had about 10 people show up for, the rest, we had about 3 or 4. Many times it was just three, and Brad was there, even though he did not live in the city... Have all of us gone to our local village or city to have old gun laws removed from the books? He has.

    I understand that some might have issues with Brad. He has made a few choices that I might not have, but he is not a bad guy for it. He is just not me. I do think he is still on my side though.



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