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East Bay police chief calls for open-carry ban

DEFENSOR

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Chrisc411 wrote:
Its just a reminder to all the anti-gun people out there, The USA was claimed and founded with guns, it has been defended by guns since then, today it is kept safe from internal and external threats buy guns wither it be by militia, Army, Navy, Marines, Air force, police, FBI, CIA and so on. All these people are citizens of the united states who took up their guns and stood up for their country. c.o.p. = Citizen on patrol why cant people put 2 and 2 together? Guns are important to our society to kept us all safe and we keep these firearms to keep us safe from each other as well.

I really liked JDs letter. The author was remiss in hisresponsibility to fairjournalism. Now to C'411, the thing that concerns me most is that much of the LE community is monitoring this forum. That in itself is ok with me but in their intelligence gathering they now understand that we are well aware of our rights and yet they seek to deny them. This is not a surprise to me, so as indicated in the letter the majority opinion among the chiefs is in favor of a ban. It is all to obvious that they would do this just to simplify their duties and to appease the traumatized public.

No recognition made to the fact that a ban is not justified under the authority of making duties more convenient for those "endangered" officers. They knew the job was "---------" when they took it. I see no reason in denying the very tangibleessential right of all people. This has nothing to do with the real issue of officer safety it is based on unreasonable prejudiced ideology. Us verses them for instance. As well as placating what they seem to think is a more significant group of citizens than your average law abiding mind their own type who is concerned with providing for their own defense.I would like to close with, for those who are in authority in these matters fear not we are not your enemy. You should not percieve us as such. Please consider carefully that if a ban on open carry is passedwe willeffectively berendered defenseless.Denied that fundamental humanrightwhich is guaranteedus by the Constitutionwould be akin to sewing our lips shut to prevent us from speeking freely.Consider carefully lest we alllose be itin our homes, on the street, in public opinion polls and on election day.

Sincerely, Defensor
 

Paladin4CA

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coolusername2007 wrote:
Paladin4CA wrote:
There is an old saying about the first thing you should do when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging. . . .

I really wish the leaders of OCDO would see that UOCing in CA at this time actively hurts the CA OC movement and our soon-to-be-incorporated 2nd A RKBA. Because of that, I further wish that the leaders would delete all threads being used to organize meet-ups until McDonald is published. Sure, if people want to OC individually because their life is in peril and they can't wait less than 12 weeks until McDonald, go for it. And if they want to organize meet-ups, fine, the 1st A is in place. But they cannot use this forum to hurt the OC movement in CA by organizing here. But that is just my wish . . .

Having meet-ups now just puts more media pressure on Sacto to restrict our rights. If a bill banning UOC becomes law, will the organizers of these meet-ups pony up the money to fight them in court after McDonald? Maybe they should prove their good intentions by putting a few tens of thousands of dollars in an escrow account for that purpose.

It never stops to amaze me how Pro-2A folks still believe this. I mean really, its seriously like talking to a battered wife who just thinks if they don't make any waves they won't get beat anymore. And when they do, its their own fault. Its truly sad in every form of the word.

Let me ask you a few questions to try to understand your position and the potential effects of UOC.

How exactly does UOC hurt the OC effort? LOC, which is the standard that we all desireis already illegal. So how does UOC hurt? I mean really, nobody wants to UOC, we have to UOC because LOC is illegal. Is anybody here actually content with UOC? I'm not.

Further, the "leaders" of OCDO in San Diego have all sat down. There haven't been any real UOC events held in SD county to speak of since they stopped UOC'ing. So how have the others contributed to digging the proverbial hole any deeper with an Assemblyman in their district? Unless the SD county rep Saldanais projecting her fears and proposing legislation for other districts of which she does not represent!

And why continue toblamethe "leaders" of OCDO for more restrictive gun laws to begin with? Your premise is false from the outset. Liberty hating, constitutionally challenged,nanny-statistelected representatives are the ones to blame. Why do you perpetuate the blame-shift thatthey want and need you to perpetuate? Why not put the blame squarely on the shoulders of those who are truly responsible for the infringement on everybody's liberties...the fear mongering, power hungry, control freak progressives who run this state?
Sorry about not replying to this sooner. I usually only visit/post on wkends.

You analogy is false: there weren't any moves to ban UOC like this that were gaining both media attention and political traction until the Nor Cal meet-ups. The wise 98 lbs weakling does not get in the bully's face NOW when he knows that he's got a crate-full of steroids arriving in less than 3 months (McDonald). He waits quietly, bidding his time training until he is strong enough to have a good chance at winning.

As to your questions:

Q1: "How exactly does UOC hurt the OC effort? LOC, which is the standard that we all desireis already illegal. So how does UOC hurt? I mean really, nobody wants to UOC, we have to UOC because LOC is illegal. Is anybody here actually content with UOC? I'm not."

A1: The Black Panthers caused us to lose LOC and the UOC'ers who refused to stand down may cause us to lose UOC.

As I said in my post, now we have to divert time, money, and effort to engage in a political fight that was unnecessary. Last week I got an email from the NRA-ILA alerting NRA members (I assume it was sent only to CA members) about the bill and telling them it is vital they contact all the members of that cmte and ask them not to vote for that bill. So, now I have to waste 1/4 hr of my life making those calls, just as everyone else who cares about our soon-to-be federal RKBA in CA, just because of those UOC'ers who would not heed wise counsel and stand down. Those UOC'ers themselves are too few to stop this bill, so everyone else -- those who did not bring this upon us and those who actively stood against pre-incorporation UOCing -- are being forced to bail all our butts out of this mess that those UOC'ers got us into.

Let's just guess that, oh, out of the total NRA membership of ~4M, that 300,000 live in CA and guess that of those, oh, 1 out of 10 (30,000) will make those calls. That is 7,500 man-hours of time spent calling, time that could have been used to advance rather than defend the cause. IOW, it is 7,500 man-hours of pro-gunnies' time needlessly wasted.

ETA: I should mention that to stop the UOC ban will take thousands of man-hours each time it comes up for a vote. So, assuming it goes this route and all the way to the Governor: Assembly Public Safety + Assembly Fiscal + Assembly floor vote + Senate Public Safety + Senate Fiscal + Senate floor vote + Governor's signature/veto = that is 7 votes requiring tens of thousands of hours of pro-gunner time to try (and maybe even then not succeeding) to stop a ban of UOC, a political fight that was unnecessary and that we can ill afford. That is tens of thousands of hours of volunteer time that could have been better used in any number of other ways to actually advance our cause.

Q2: "Further, the "leaders" of OCDO in San Diego have all sat down. There haven't been any real UOC events held in SD county to speak of since they stopped UOC'ing. So how have the others contributed to digging the proverbial hole any deeper with an Assemblyman in their district? Unless the SD county rep Saldanais projecting her fears and proposing legislation for other districts of which she does not represent!"

A2: Simple, they are stirring things up in other Assemblymembers' and State Senators' districts and the media is still making it an issue (see today's SF Chronicle front page story which will be online Tues). This will cause many of them to support her whereas if all CA UOC'ers stood down, only the hard-core antis would support her. Not all antis (or Dems) are hard-core antis. (For full disclosure, many Repubs are antis, incl Arnie, who wrote a letter urging Feinstein to vote against national reciprocity legislation (not that she would ever support it).)

If UOC'ers keep making UOC an issue, the antis, esp the Dems, will be happy to use that as a diversion/distraction to keep some their constituents' attention from the fact that CA is about to go bankrupt and to make 2nd A rights haters happy and willing to fight for Dems this Nov. It stirs up their anti base better than they could do themselves. Don't give them any political cover for the Nov elections!

Q3: "And why continue toblamethe "leaders" of OCDO for more restrictive gun laws to begin with? Your premise is false from the outset. Liberty hating, constitutionally challenged,nanny-statistelected representatives are the ones to blame. Why do you perpetuate the blame-shift thatthey want and need you to perpetuate? Why not put the blame squarely on the shoulders of those who are truly responsible for the infringement on everybody's liberties...the fear mongering, power hungry, control freak progressives who run this state?"

A3: Your premise is false from the outset: it is liberty hating, constitutionally challenged voters who elected those reps who are to blame. No, no, wait, it is really the liberty hating, constitutionally challenged public school teachers, university profs, and PBS who are to blame for indoctrinating everyone with falsehoods about the history of our Republic, it's Constitution, and laws and thus cause us to vote for those Liberty hating, constitutionally challenged,nanny-statistelected representatives. No, no, I've got it: it is really the CFR/Trilateral C./Bildenbergers who are to blame who direct all those liberty hating, constitutionally challenged public school teachers, . . . . Whatever.

The political battlefield is what it is. For pro-RKBA Californians to stir up a hornet's nest of opposition less than 6 months before incorporation (since Jan, when Nor Cal UOCing started getting media attention), was asking for trouble and now we've got it. Sure, Saldana is using the SD UOCing as justification for her bill. But she didn't introduce it until after Nor Cal UOCers caused the MSM to focus on the issue (and Starbucks), making her think it will get support from reps across the state.

For some UOC'ers to persist in having meet-ups after Starbuck's fiasco rather than wait for getting some federal 2nd A protection, was reckless. "If you act like an [donkey], someone will be willing to ride you." Saldana will happily ride UOCing to gain political power among antis.

Outta here until next weekend.
 

Sons of Liberty

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Paladin4CA wrote:
[SNIP] So, now I have to waste 1/4 hr of my life making those calls, just as everyone else who cares about our soon-to-be federal RKBA in CA, just because of those UOC'ers who would not heed wise counsel and stand down. Those UOC'ers themselves are too few to stop this bill, so everyone else -- those who did not bring this upon us and those who actively stood against pre-incorporation UOCing -- are being forced to bail all our butts out of this mess that those UOC'ers got us into.

...For some UOC'ers to persist in having meet-ups after Starbuck's fiasco rather than wait for getting some federal 2nd A protection, was reckless. "If you act like an [donkey], someone will be willing to ride you." Saldana will happily ride UOCing to gain political power among antis.

Outta here until next weekend.

Your anger is misdirected. It was not UOCers that introduced the bill. In addition, your aloofness and repugnant attitude toward UOCersare showing. "Fiasco" and "reckless"are words the Brady-types would use to describe the position Starbucks took.

Glad you only show up on weekends...my spirit couldn't take all of your encouraging words every day of the week!
 

Paladin4CA

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Sons of Liberty wrote:
Paladin4CA wrote:
[SNIP] So, now I have to waste 1/4 hr of my life making those calls, just as everyone else who cares about our soon-to-be federal RKBA in CA, just because of those UOC'ers who would not heed wise counsel and stand down. Those UOC'ers themselves are too few to stop this bill, so everyone else -- those who did not bring this upon us and those who actively stood against pre-incorporation UOCing -- are being forced to bail all our butts out of this mess that those UOC'ers got us into.

...For some UOC'ers to persist in having meet-ups after Starbuck's fiasco rather than wait for getting some federal 2nd A protection, was reckless. "If you act like an [donkey], someone will be willing to ride you." Saldana will happily ride UOCing to gain political power among antis.

Outta here until next weekend.

Your anger is misdirected. It was not UOCers that introduced the bill. In addition, your aloofness and repugnant attitude toward UOCersare showing. "Fiasco" and "reckless"are words the Brady-types would use to describe the position Starbucks took.

Glad you only show up on weekends...my spirit couldn't take all of your encouraging words every day of the week!
It was the UOC'ers who wouldn't stand down until after McDonald who made UOCing a political issue in CA where we don't even have a state constitutional RKBA and where antis control both legislative chambers and the governorship. Way to go, rocket scientists!

Sacto's response was perfectly predictable and predicted (by Gene Hoffman), but certain UOC'ers reckless behavior (and that is exactly what it was, knowing the potential harm but pursing that course of action regardless) put UOCing on Sacto's radar.

I'm still waiting to hear which of you has put aside tens of thousands of dollars to fight this in the courts if it becomes law . . . . (sounds of crickets)

I visited this site again to see how many have stepped forward to say they contacted the Assembly Public Safety Committee members asking them to vote against AB1934:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/42555.html
No one, other than MC and me (and I was waiting until after incorporation to UOC).

You guys made a mess and now expect all the other CA gunnies to clean it up. Thanks a bunch.

Your spirit will recover faster than our ability to UOC if this bill becomes law.
 

Sons of Liberty

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Paladin4CA wrote:
[SNIP] I'm still waiting to hear which of you has put aside tens of thousands of dollars to fight this in the courts if it becomes law . . . . (sounds of crickets)

I visited this site again to see how many have stepped forward to say they contacted the Assembly Public Safety Committee members asking them to vote against AB1934:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/42555.html
No one, other than MC and me (and I was waiting until after incorporation to UOC).

You guys made a mess and now expect all the other CA gunnies to clean it up. Thanks a bunch.

Your spirit will recover faster than our ability to UOC if this bill becomes law.

I don't expect anything out of you. You still don't get it.

A right is not bought. A right cannot not be nullified by legislation. A right is not determined by a court.

A right isendowed byour Creator and asserted by those who would defend it.

Are you willing to defend it?

If yes, then quit your cryin' and moanin' and concentrate on the enemy on the road ahead.
 

demnogis

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Paladin4CA,
It sounds like you're pissed that anti legislation is even coming forth. Your anger at Open Carriers in CA is quite misdirected. Instead of getting mad at those of us willing to engage/educate the public -- even if that means talking to people and taking criticism from those who don't agree with us -- why don't you spend that energy calling up your reps, writing them and telling them "Hey, I don't like what you're doing. I'm a voter and I'm pissed off." Instead it seems the easier option is to blame those who share the passion for liberty but express it differently.

You make it sound as though the only reason there is this anti OC bill is because of those of us in CA. You forget that the Progressive Socialists in our state feed from a national trough. Not only is Open Carry being exercised nationally, but CA is going to get incorporation rammed down it's throat. Just like there is/was a house and senate Progressive Socialist super-majority at the federal level, there is one in CA. Before they have to swallow that poison pill they're going to try to make anything and everything they can illegal.

Why do you think there was the audacity to pass ammunition regulation?
Why do you think they are going to initiate long-arm registration?

The antis and statists know the end will come for RKBA infringement. What are they doing? Playing on the sheeples' fear, playing on in-fighting and of course dropping the "public safety" bomb (which we all know is BS).

Long story short, getting mad at us who care just as much about the 2A doesn't achieve anything. As more people are "waking up" to all the small infringements they're realizing just sending their $10 to the NRA or $10 to CGF isn't enough. Now is the time to call your reps, tell them "I vote, and I'm pissed about what you're doing."

But we all have to go one more step further than that: go out and tell another person. If they care anything about their liberty they will call their rep, say how they feel and tell one more person.
 

marshaul

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The attitude of the folks over at Calguns (now they're coming over here :quirky) is probably the main reason I'm fed up with California, even more than our ridiculous legislature.

Blaming the victim of rape is never acceptable. It is always wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's ******* disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Take your rationalizations, your justifications, and your bullshit and shove it all up your ass.
 

Paladin4CA

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Sons of Liberty wrote
I don't expect anything out of you. You still don't get it.

A right is not bought. A right cannot not be nullified by legislation. A right is not determined by a court.

A right isendowed byour Creator and asserted by those who would defend it.

Are you willing to defend it?

If yes, then quit your cryin' and moanin' and concentrate on the enemy on the road ahead.
So, how will those of you who refused to stand down (for group meetups, not individual self-protection), plan to stop this bill, "your mess", on your own? How many of you are there? 100? 1,000? 10,000? If you can't stop this bill politically, how much money will those who continued w/the group meetups contribute to fighting the legal battle in the courts? $20,000? $200,000? $2,000,000? Or will you guys just promise to repay CGF, SAF, and/or the NRA whatever it costs to undue this mess? (yeah, right)

Re. rights: Why do you UOC if you have a right to LOC? Why aren't you "asserting" your right to LOC if you "would defend it"?

Re. defending rights: I'm smart enough not to put any of our RKBA at risk needlessly, when they are still vulnerable due to a lack of federal protection. I'm smart enough to realize that the fight to secure those rights will be easier to win, less expensive, and quicker when we have fed cts protecting those rights, esp when that will probably happen in less than 3 months. I don't plan on being like one of those income tax protesters who says the 16th A was never ratified properly and therefore doesn't pay his fed income taxes and ends up in fed. prison, esp when that is NEEDLESS since SCOUTUS is probably going our way w/McDonald.

Remember, this has NOTHING to do w/individual UOC for SD. It is the meetups that got all the press (and still do), that started the Peet's, CPK, and Starbucks drama which then got the Brady's to enter the fray, which just brought more media attention which stirred up the antis in Sacto to the point where we're now wasting time and effort trying to kill another anti bill.

Am I willing to defend our RKBA? Are you willing to stop putting your and every other Californians' RKBA at risk NEEDLESSLY for the next 3 months?
 

Paladin4CA

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marshaul wrote:
The attitude of the folks over at Calguns (now they're coming over here :quirky) is probably the main reason I'm fed up with California, even more than our ridiculous legislature.

Blaming the victim of rape is never acceptable. It is always wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's @#$%ing disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Take your rationalizations, your justifications, and your bull@#$% and shove it all up your ass.
And you talk about the attitude of folks over at CGN??? (rolls eyes) Yep, you've got just the right attitude to sink any political progress for the RKBA in this state.

I've been here for over 2 yrs and was watching OCDO for about a year before that. After incorporation, I had hoped to use U/LOC to force my sheriff to issue a CCW (he's an anti) and/or to force CA to go Shall Issue, just like they did in Ohio (since they have a state con. RKBA). Now, that strategy to liberalize CA CCW issuance is at risk and may be foreclosed by this bill. Thanks.

Your rape analogy is apt: The group meetups in CA before incorporation are like an unarmed young woman wearing a string bikini and high heels and choosing to walk around East Oakland at 11pm on a hot summer night. Sure, she had a right to go where she wants any time she wants dressed as she wants and if she gets raped, she will be a victim. But there are 2 important points: (1) She was reckless. The rape was needless. Her provocative dress was asking for trouble from criminals, just as UOC group meets are asking for trouble from the antis in Sacto. (2) The analogy breaks down because w/UOC group meets, it is not just the participants who get "raped" of their rights, it is ALL Californians. If you want to put your own rights/liberty at risk, fine. But you've now put mine at risk too.

And again, the UOC group meetups BEFORE incorporation were NEEDLESS. They did NOTHING that could not have been done just as well after incorporation.
 

Paladin4CA

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I want to say one more thing before I leave tonight. Above I called for the forum's leaders to realize that allowing members to organize meetups before incorporation is putting our ability to UOC at risk. I asked them -- and now I ask other UOC leaders who have their own forums/blogs/etc -- to stand down *from group meetup* and not allow others to use their forums for organizing group meetups until after incorporation (hopefully, before 1 July 2010).

I am NOT saying anyone has to/should stop UOCing for SD, esp if they live/work/etc in bad areas because that is reasonable and understandable and the MSM will NOT cover that because it is reasonable and understandable. The MSM only want to cover gunnies being provocative/controversial/unreasonable.

If the group meetups stop for now, hopefully the media attention will die down and the bill will be easier to kill before passage. If the meetups continue and the press seems happy to keep it a big issue, we'll probably not be able to kill it and will have to spend big bucks fighting it in court where we may or may not will. IOW: suspend the group meetups and we may win the political fight. Continue the meetups and, IMO, we'll probably lose the political fight and have to engage in a protracted and expensive legal fight which we may or may not win.
 

Sons of Liberty

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Paladin4CA wrote:
Sons of Liberty wrote
Are you willing to defend it?

If yes, then quit your cryin' and moanin' and concentrate on the enemy on the road ahead.
Am I willing to defend our RKBA? Are you willing to stop putting your and every other Californians' RKBA at risk NEEDLESSLY for the next 3 months?


Glad you changed your mind and grace us with you words of wisdom throughout this week.

So, how does liberty and freedom flow free in a land where your rights are put "NEEDLESSLY" at risk for exercising them? Let me answer the question for you since you have a hard time answering. Liberty and freedom doesn't flow free in such a land. But a free flow of liberty and freedom will become a trickle when those succumb to the theory that a right still has some meaning when it is not exercised, either willingly or not willingly, at the threat of tyranny. This is why I will recommend that people fully assert their RKBA.

The more you exercise and assert, the more liberty and freedom flows. Conversely, the less you exercise and assert, the less liberty and freedom flows.

The reason such illegal laws are brought upon the people by tyrants is because some "pro-gun" organizations are encouraging everyone to "stand-down". The tyrants become embolden because certain "pro-gun" organizations are not encouraging their membership tofully assert the RKBA. Do you think that this legislation would have been introduced if every member of the NRA or Cal-Guns were fully asserting their RKBA?

So, since your still cryin' and moanin', I guess your answer to my question is that you are not willing to "defend"the RKBA.

(edited 2nd paragraph for clarity)
 

coolusername2007

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Paladin4CA, I'm not going to take the time to address every one of your ridiculous claims. What is clear by your rantings is that you're still the battered wife suffering from battered wife syndrome. You need therapy...therapy in the form of living free. I would recommend moving to a freer state like AZ, AK, or VT. You need to experience freedom first hand, you need to witness first hand how others respond when anyone of the communityis threatened withsubjugation. When one is threatened, all are threatened.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you are native to this state. Its actually quite easy to tell the natives from the transplants. There is a definite tone with those native to this state. While the transplants know they can just go back and are simply waiting for the right time.

You entire argument is baseless for one simple reason that you have yet to discover. Here it is...and I want you to ponder on it for several moments and let it sink in...ready...here goes...McDonald won't make a hill of beans difference to the anti's. Now, for emphasis because I know you didn't give it the proper time required, here it is again...McDonald won't make a hill of beans difference to the anti's. Try saying it out loud a couple of times. Not wimpy like, but with force and intent. McDonald won't make a hill of beans difference to the anti's! Once you fully grasp that all will begin to make more sense. So you see, whether its now, or two weeks, or three months or whatever, it won't matter. The anti's will continue their progressive, anti-liberty agenda...until you, and I, and everyone else stops them.

For generations, the common man has believed the Bill of Rights belongs to them individually, and could not be crossed, notby state or even localgovernments, by no-one. Then along came the doctrine of incorporation, which most common men have never even heard of, much less fully comprehend. And you're still going to try to pass along that garbage of not protected in CA. Yes, its protected in CA, even Lori Saldana knows it, just watch the video again if you don't believe me. And yet, they seek to destroy liberty, control the common man, gain power through perversion of the laws, the courts, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. How can the Constitution be the Supreme Law of the Land, yet the Bill of Rights doesn't apply?! They are one and the same. And every common man knows it instinctively, why because they come from the Natural Law and are divinely inspired. Further proof of this will be when SCOTUS rules on McDonald, because the 2nd applies to Chicago also, if it didn't it couldn't possibly be "incorporated" now could it? A new right will not be created, an existing right will be affirmed, once and for all. After which the anti's will simply pick up their shattered selves and start over again chipping away at what we all know to be ours...inherently and instinctively.

And yes, LOC is coming so go ahead and up your donations, lest you start complaining again. Molon Labe.
 

marshaul

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Paladin4CA wrote:
Your rape analogy is apt: The group meetups in CA before incorporation are like an unarmed young woman wearing a string bikini and high heels and choosing to walk around East Oakland at 11pm on a hot summer night. Sure, she had a right to go where she wants any time she wants dressed as she wants and if she gets raped, she will be a victim. But there are 2 important points: (1) She was reckless. The rape was needless. Her provocative dress was asking for trouble from criminals
:shock:

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
 

marshaul

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Paladin4CA wrote:
And you talk about the attitude of folks over at CGN??? (rolls eyes) Yep, you've got just the right attitude to sink any political progress for the RKBA in this state.
At this point I really don't give a shit about my birth state. It's dead to me, and that's thanks primarily to Californians like you (and a little help from the legislature).

I'm not saying I'm proud of that fact. I'm not saying it's good for the future of our rights. I'm just saying it's the truth. Sorry, I just don't care any more. It's not worth the emotional investment to care.
 

demnogis

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Paladin4CA,
Not to throw more boards on the fire heap, but something I wanted to add (or reassert) and coolusername2007 brought it forward.

When Nordyke went through and the 2A was reaffirmed in this state, there still was disdain for Open Carry by other 2A organizations. I hardly doubt another reaffirmation through McDonald will change that either.

Once we get our legislature replaced with one that honors its oath to the Constitution (aka Supreme Law Of The Land) we will not have to worry about such bad laws. Unfortunately coolusername2007 is correct. Despite any such legislation being unconstitutional (infringing on any right, fyi) it will still pass by our Progressive, Socialist controlled legislature and still have to be taken up to the challenge at the 9th Circuit.

Playing the blame and hate game for one group exercising their rights then leading to getting something taken away that -- frankly, a majority of that right-supporting group in CA is too afraid to do -- really does not impact them. Instead of working on the more important battle they continue to say "See, we told you so!"

Let's take a look at current issues:
  • Open Carry is a nation-wide movement. They would outlaw it sooner or later in CA.
  • Registration will come to bear. Registration is considered a "reasonable restriction".
  • Ammunition regulation will have the desired impact before it is repealed.
  • Shall-Issue CCW will still be an expensive, restrictive privilege and be nearly-useless at first (for law-abiding) until there are further challenges.
Dare we see banned possession of any firearm in public, concealed or not unless meeting specific requirements? I would not put it past our legislature.

Dare we see banned types of ammunition? Copper or steel only? No lead? I would not put it past our legislature.

Dare we see expansion of crimes that become prohibitions on ownership/possession? Happening currently.

It doesn't matter if we exercise the Inalienable right. If that right stands in the way of the legislature's agenda it will be outlawed, for "public safety", for "fear", or to "make law enforcement's job easier". Until things are changed at that level the bad laws will be presented, the bad laws will pass and finally the bad laws will be held up in court for years while the law-abiding are left to suffer.

So no, blaming those of us who decided to exercise our right, engage our fellow friends, neighbors and relatives and educate them is the wrong thing to do. Don't be fooled or misdirected -- place the blame solely where it belongs: With those who make it their day job to outlaw your liberty.
 

Nopal

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
90
Location
Orange County, California, USA
imported post

Paladin4CA,

Just one more point to bolster Coolusername2007's and Demnogis' points:

Didn'tthe law against LOADED open carry with a CCW go into effect just this January? Since, at the time that jewel was passedUOC was still pretty much under the radar of the media and politicians, who was to blame for that? Who was the scapegoat then?

The truth is, our backwards legislature does not need a scapegoat. If there is no one they can readilyblame, they'll still make something up. They don't need your help, or our help, or anybody's help to do it.I tell you what, though, theysure appreciate the divisivness, distraction,and lack of cohesion that playing the blame-game brings to our cause. Perhaps you should be wise in reconsidering who in this debate is really adopting the positionthatdamages the RKBA in California the most.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
imported post

The argument is that the legislature simply might have never even thought about UOC as something to ban had folks not been doing it.

I'm inclined to agree with this logic.

I'm also inclined to not care one bit. You can't expect people to not exercise their rights because of obscure strategic decisions.

Those of us who are involved on the forums did stand down, but it didn't matter because there were swarms of disaffected Californians taking up the slack, UOCing without even registering on either forum first!.

I don't blame them; I cannot bring myself to blame any person for any nonaggressive behavior, no matter how politically unwise it may be.

So, banning UOC was inevitable, not because the legislature was going to discover it on their own, but because it simply hadn't been banned yet.

The "Calguns stance" is very in-tune with the whims of the legislature, and completely, utterly ignorant of any aspect of genuine human nature in the real world.
 

Paladin4CA

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
39
Location
Deep Behind Enemy Lines, California, USA
imported post

Paladin4CA wrote:
Demnogis,

I'll reply to your post tomorrow night. Just skimming over it, it seems like a thoughtful post so I want to do it justice.

P4CA
Sorry, but two new work projects landed on my desk, so I can't interact w/your post tonight. Hopefully, I'll be able to this weekend.

Later,
P4CA
 

Sons of Liberty

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
638
Location
Riverside, California, USA
imported post

Paladin4CA wrote:
Sorry, but two new work projects landed on my desk, so I can't interact w/your post tonight. Hopefully, I'll be able to this weekend.

Later,
P4CA
:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate
 
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