Dreamer
Regular Member
imported post
Does anyone know if black powder muzzle-loaded pistols would be prohibited under NC law with regards to the firearms prohibition in venues that serve alcohol for consumption?
I've looked and looked and can't find anything that specifically addresses this...
Since black powder muzzle loaders (antique firearms or modern repros of such guns) have not been considered "firearms" under Federal law (18 USC §921(3)(D) and (16)(b) since 1995,
However, under NC law, a "firearm" is defines a LOT more loosely:
This question stems from an experience I had this past weekend. I was over in Greenville on Saturday for "PirateFest", and event the city sponsors downtown. The block off a few blocks of the main drag in the downtown old-town district, and have street vendors, musicians, and performers.
Of course, I was OCing, and when I approached the official area, I noticed a sign that says "Grog Zone", and it had some fine print saying that you could only consume alcohol in that one block area, so I assumed they were serving beer, and had gotten a special ABC waiver permit for public consumption.
Needless to say, I turned right around and marched back to my vehicle, where I unholstered and secured my Para, then went back up (wearing my empty Serpa) and started looking for answers...
first, I talked to the people at the "Information Booth". I asked if they knew who held the ABC Permit for the event. They had no information...
Then I found the stand where they were serving the beer. They knew who had the license, and actually showed me their displayed copy, but couldn't tell me if the whole "grog zone" block would be covered under NC's firearms ban.
Then I saw three young GPD bicycle cops. I asked them if they knew if the firearms ban would be applicable in the "grog zone". They told me that they thought it would.
Then I saw a couple "old timer" GPD motorcycle cops further down the block and asked them the same question. They said that they thought it would NOT apply because it was a public street, and even though they had an ABC waiver to serve out in the open, they wouldn't consider the street or the sidewalk to be covered...
However, I then looked up the specific wording of the statute on my iPhone in the Right2Bear app, and the exact wording says:
But knowing that GPD recently got 21 new AR-15s, I figured that this was not really the time or the place to "try it out". I suppose I need to call the NC AG on this one...
added note: when talking to the "old timers", one officer said "well judging from the crowd here so far today, I doubt you'd need to be carrying". To which I answered, "I doubt those students at VA Tech thought they needed to be carrying either, though..." To which he responded, "oh, yeah. You've got a point there..."
The "old timers" were WAY more cordial, honest, and interested in my line of query than the rookie bicycle cops. And they asked me what I usually carried too, and when I told them, they both went "wow, sounds like a nice piece"...
And to top it all off, the "Pirate Reenactors" who were doing "black powder demonstrations" were walking around with all kinds of black powder pistols tucked in their belts. (none of them were drinking though...) I got into a discussion with one of the reinactors (from VA) who INSISTED that the Federal law 18 USC 921 over-rode NC law and because black powder firearms were not considered "firearms", they were not covered.
I let him know politely that it did not. I even pulled out my iPhone and showed him the exact statute for NC firearms ban with regards to alcohol, and the NC Statutory definition of a "firearm", but he did not want to be confused by the facts, because he KNEW the law. Apparently wearing a pirate outfit somehow makes a VA resident an expert on NC law, so I didn't press it...
Yeah, this is going to need a call to the AG...
Does anyone know if black powder muzzle-loaded pistols would be prohibited under NC law with regards to the firearms prohibition in venues that serve alcohol for consumption?
I've looked and looked and can't find anything that specifically addresses this...
Since black powder muzzle loaders (antique firearms or modern repros of such guns) have not been considered "firearms" under Federal law (18 USC §921(3)(D) and (16)(b) since 1995,
18 USC §921. Definitions (3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
However, under NC law, a "firearm" is defines a LOT more loosely:
N.C.G.S. § 14-409.39, the definition section in article 53B,:
So I'm assuming that black powder pistols, under NC law, ARE prohibited under the same statutes that ban modern firearms (places that serve alcohol, schools, places that charge admission, jails, etc).[A firearm is defined as a] handgun, shotgun, or rifle which expels a projectile by action of an explosion.
This question stems from an experience I had this past weekend. I was over in Greenville on Saturday for "PirateFest", and event the city sponsors downtown. The block off a few blocks of the main drag in the downtown old-town district, and have street vendors, musicians, and performers.
Of course, I was OCing, and when I approached the official area, I noticed a sign that says "Grog Zone", and it had some fine print saying that you could only consume alcohol in that one block area, so I assumed they were serving beer, and had gotten a special ABC waiver permit for public consumption.
Needless to say, I turned right around and marched back to my vehicle, where I unholstered and secured my Para, then went back up (wearing my empty Serpa) and started looking for answers...
first, I talked to the people at the "Information Booth". I asked if they knew who held the ABC Permit for the event. They had no information...
Then I found the stand where they were serving the beer. They knew who had the license, and actually showed me their displayed copy, but couldn't tell me if the whole "grog zone" block would be covered under NC's firearms ban.
Then I saw three young GPD bicycle cops. I asked them if they knew if the firearms ban would be applicable in the "grog zone". They told me that they thought it would.
Then I saw a couple "old timer" GPD motorcycle cops further down the block and asked them the same question. They said that they thought it would NOT apply because it was a public street, and even though they had an ABC waiver to serve out in the open, they wouldn't consider the street or the sidewalk to be covered...
However, I then looked up the specific wording of the statute on my iPhone in the Right2Bear app, and the exact wording says:
NCGS §14-269.3a:
Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
Since the street is NOT and "establishment", and since walking through some arbitrary zone on the street would not be "carrying into" an establishment, I can't see how 14-269.3a could apply.Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
But knowing that GPD recently got 21 new AR-15s, I figured that this was not really the time or the place to "try it out". I suppose I need to call the NC AG on this one...
added note: when talking to the "old timers", one officer said "well judging from the crowd here so far today, I doubt you'd need to be carrying". To which I answered, "I doubt those students at VA Tech thought they needed to be carrying either, though..." To which he responded, "oh, yeah. You've got a point there..."
The "old timers" were WAY more cordial, honest, and interested in my line of query than the rookie bicycle cops. And they asked me what I usually carried too, and when I told them, they both went "wow, sounds like a nice piece"...
And to top it all off, the "Pirate Reenactors" who were doing "black powder demonstrations" were walking around with all kinds of black powder pistols tucked in their belts. (none of them were drinking though...) I got into a discussion with one of the reinactors (from VA) who INSISTED that the Federal law 18 USC 921 over-rode NC law and because black powder firearms were not considered "firearms", they were not covered.
I let him know politely that it did not. I even pulled out my iPhone and showed him the exact statute for NC firearms ban with regards to alcohol, and the NC Statutory definition of a "firearm", but he did not want to be confused by the facts, because he KNEW the law. Apparently wearing a pirate outfit somehow makes a VA resident an expert on NC law, so I didn't press it...
Yeah, this is going to need a call to the AG...