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Thread: 230gr Federal Hydra-Shoks

  1. #1
    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Since acquiring a Glock 21 (my first .45), I started shopping for some premium SD ammo to feed it. It seems that many believe that the 230gr. Hydra-Shoks are the cream of the crop, yet I cannot find them ANYWHERE. No local stores have them, and they seem to be on never-ending backorder through the online retailers that I've checked with (Midway USA, Cabela's, and a slew of lesser-knowns). What gives?

    Does anyone know of an online retailer that actually has the aforementioned product AVAILABLE?

    For the time being, I've settled for some 185gr Golden Sabres from a local gun store, but I'm still interested in the hydra-shoks if I can find them. The only .45 hydra-shoks I've ever actually seen in any stores locally are the 165gr "low-recoil" ones.
    Carry on!

  2. #2
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Ruger wrote:
    Since acquiring a Glock 21 (my first .45), I started shopping for some premium SD ammo to feed it. It seems that many believe that the 230gr. Hydra-Shoks are the cream of the crop, yet I cannot find them ANYWHERE. No local stores have them, and they seem to be on never-ending backorder through the online retailers that I've checked with (Midway USA, Cabela's, and a slew of lesser-knowns). What gives?

    Does anyone know of an online retailer that actually has the aforementioned product AVAILABLE?

    For the time being, I've settled for some 185gr Golden Sabres from a local gun store, but I'm still interested in the hydra-shoks if I can find them. The only .45 hydra-shoks I've ever actually seen in any stores locally are the 165gr "low-recoil" ones.
    Federal Hydra-Shoks are an older design and have had a less that sterling performance history. Not bad mind you, but open to improvement. And they were.

    The Federal HST is a better design and one which you may want to consider in your new G21.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  3. #3
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Federal Hydra-Shoks are an older design and have had a less that sterling performance history. Not bad mind you, but open to improvement. And they were.

    The Federal HST is a better design and one which you may want to consider in your new G21.

    Cite please.

    If you believe the info printed in the books posted by Marshal and Sanow the 230gr HS rates @ 96%.
    http://ww.handloads.org/misc/stoppin...amp;Weight=All

    Have there been improvements in bullet design, you better believe it, however
    that doesn't mean that the old design is bad (in some case it was) or didn't perform adequately.

    One departments needs/requirements aren't necessarily what the average citizen needs.
    If that was the case everyone would be carrying 10mm as the FBI proclaimed it was the best years ago and only steered way from it because some agents (wimps imho) could not handle the mild recoil of this truly awesome Semi Auto pistol round.

    Those wimps (and other wimps)now carry 40 Short& Weak.


    OP, take a good hard look at Double Tap ammo, not only is it a bargin at todays $$ but it is top shelf ammo.




    EDIT:
    In 1988 that the FBI's Firearms Training Unit (FTU) experts at Quantico, Virginia, determined that the 10mm was the best-performing law-enforcement cartridge of all autoloader rounds then available on the market; far better, in fact, than either the popular 9mm Luger or the traditional .45 ACP.

    The FBI had begun a systematic analysis of law-enforcement handgun ammunition effectiveness in the aftermath of a Miami shootout in 1986 which left two agents dead. The full-power commercial 10mm Auto cartridge won the FTU's review hands down.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    HST's appear to be even harder to find than hydra-shoks. Whereas the hydra-shoks are listed as being on backorder, the HSTs aren't listed at all thorugh Midway or Cabela's. Is this another LE-only cartridge that I will only be able to find at gun shows?
    Carry on!

  5. #5
    Regular Member 4angrybadgers's Avatar
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    Ruger wrote:
    HST's appear to be even harder to find than hydra-shoks. Whereas the hydra-shoks are listed as being on backorder, the HSTs aren't listed at all thorugh Midway or Cabela's. Is this another LE-only cartridge that I will only be able to find at gun shows?
    http://www.streichers.com/ProductDet...;Prod=FC-45HST

    I bought .40S&W HSTs from Streicher's last year. They were backordered and took a few months to ship, but the wait was worth the price savings. $33/50 shipped for the HSTs, versus $20-$25/20 for Hydra-Shoks anywhere local.

  6. #6
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Federal Hydra-Shoks are an older design and have had a less that sterling performance history. Not bad mind you, but open to improvement. And they were.

    The Federal HST is a better design and one which you may want to consider in your new G21.

    Cite please.

    If you believe the info printed in the books posted by Marshal and Sanow the 230gr HS rates @ 96%.
    http://ww.handloads.org/misc/stoppin...amp;Weight=All

    Have there been improvements in bullet design, you better believe it, however
    that doesn't mean that the old design is bad (in some case it was) or didn't perform adequately.

    One departments needs/requirements aren't necessarily what the average citizen needs.
    If that was the case everyone would be carrying 10mm as the FBI proclaimed it was the best years ago and only steered way from it because some agents (wimps imho) could not handle the mild recoil of this truly awesome Semi Auto pistol round.

    Those wimps (and other wimps)now carry 40 Short& Weak.


    OP, take a good hard look at Double Tap ammo, not only is it a bargin at todays $$ but it is top shelf ammo.




    EDIT:
    In 1988 that the FBI's Firearms Training Unit (FTU) experts at Quantico, Virginia, determined that the 10mm was the best-performing law-enforcement cartridge of all autoloader rounds then available on the market; far better, in fact, than either the popular 9mm Luger or the traditional .45 ACP.

    The FBI had begun a systematic analysis of law-enforcement handgun ammunition effectiveness in the aftermath of a Miami shootout in 1986 which left two agents dead. The full-power commercial 10mm Auto cartridge won the FTU's review hands down.
    Et tu Brute?

    My comment about the Hydra-Shok's performance comes from some magazine articles and postings I've read and comparisons in the Evan's/Sanow works of which I have all three. I just did a cursory look through these three books and found nothing where the .40S&W Hydra-Shok came out at 96% one shot stops (granted, I did not review the .45 information. I do seem to recall that a later magazine article by Ed Sanow referenced 96% one shot stops with the Federal Classic 155gr JHP which were later revised to 94% as more data came in.

    The best one shot stop percentage I found in these books for a .45ACP 230gr Hydra-Shok (again, a cursory examination) was 94%. As I recall, the Hydra-Shok tended to be a better man stopper in the .45ACP than in the .40S&W and I believe the reason offered was due to a reduced percentage of bullet noses getting stacked up with crap and therefore lowering the chance of good expansion in human targets.

    However, 2% is insignificant and not likely to be a factor - shot placement and consistency being more important in the scheme of things. And are you suggesting those of us who chose to carry a .40 are less than manly and even wimps because of our choice? Personally, I'd prefer not to be ventilated by anything.

    BTW, Evan's and Sanow turned up better results with the .40S&W than they did with the 10mm. Does this mean that the .40 is more powerful than the 10mm? Absolutely not. Does it mean that the data they collected indicated this? From their reports, yes. Do I want to get hit with a 10mm because I think I might stand a better chance of surviving than if I was hit with a .40? Hell no. I ain't crazy.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  7. #7
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    I'd prefer not to be ventilated by anything.

    I knew we had read the same play book.

    My treat the next time we go out, I'll get you one of those fruity drinks with an umbrella.:P
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    I'd prefer not to be ventilated by anything.

    I knew we had read the same play book.

    My treat the next time we go out, I'll get you one of those fruity drinks with an umbrella.:P
    Only if you wear long pants and real shoes.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    I'd prefer not to be ventilated by anything.

    I knew we had read the same play book.

    My treat the next time we go out, I'll get you one of those fruity drinks with an umbrella.:P
    Let me add this.

    If I were a hiker or had in mind camping in the mountains of Virginia and wanted a decent semi-auto pistol to carry along with me, it would be a Glock in 10mm, not a .40 or a .45, for the simple reason that I suspect the 10mm would give me a better chance against a black bear than the other two calibers. Like I said, I ain't crazy. I've gotten rather use to living and hope to do quite a bit more of it.

    If a revolver was to be the choice, my 5 1/2" Redhawk .44 Magnum would join me - as it has many times in the past into the wilderness.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  10. #10
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Ruger wrote:
    Does anyone know of an online retailer that actually has the aforementioned product AVAILABLE?

    http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=ammoGroup&ammoGroup=2&s earchBy=size&ammoSize=300&startRow

    I've gotten rather use to living and hope to do quite a bit more of it.
    Amen

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    If you're open to other manufacturers, i've never had a problem with Speer or Hornady, Especially the new Critical Defense from hornady. The .45 only comes in 185gr. though.

  12. #12
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    marrero jeff wrote:
    If you're open to other manufacturers, i've never had a problem with Speer or Hornady, Especially the new Critical Defense from hornady. The .45 only comes in 185gr. though.
    I have two ways to look at the popular calibers' handgun ammunition. 1) There are some really fine offerings available to the buyer in quality ammunition choices. 2) This is an area which changes frequently with new and improved products for the individual interested in the best ammunition for his personal safety.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    If that was the case everyone would be carrying 10mm as the FBI proclaimed it was the best years ago and only steered way from it because some agents (wimps imho) could not handle the mild recoil of this truly awesome Semi Auto pistol round.
    Well, this isn't entirely true. The "popular story" is that the recoil was too high for th ecomfort of field agents, but the REAL story is that the firearm that S&W sold to the Bureau ( S&W model 1076) had many functional issues.

    As a fan of the 10mm, I'm getting a little tired of hearing this story. As someone who owned a Colt Delta Elite for over 5 years and put nearly 10,000 rounds through it, I can say without hesitation that in a 1911 platform, the 10mm has less kick than my Taurus 689 4" firing .357 magnum +P, or my ParaOrd S-14.45 shooting 230gr defense rounds. I have fired the S&W 1076 (but never owned one) and I can say that it IS a little more "snappy" than the Colt, but it's still nowhere near as punishing as a full-house .357 magnum load, and a little lighter-feeling than a hot .45acp...

    Tests done by the FBI and independent labs have shown that the S&W model 1076 has a nearly identical grip angle and bore offset to the 1911, and those same tests show that the S&W 1076 actually has LOWER recoil (in terms of measured ft/lbs) than a 1911 firing 230gr FBI loads. The recoil is felt as "sharper" or with "more snap" but the actual ft/lbs of force exerted on the hand of the shooter is lower than the 1911. So the "heavy recoil" claim as the reason for the demise of the 10mm in Bureau use is simply not true. If anything, the "recoil problem" was ACTUALLY due to the fact that the FBI had started hiring and fielding more female agents in the late 1980's and folks with smaller hands CAN find the S&W 1076 a little hard to handle because of the depth and thickness of the grip.

    The S&W 1076 had an MIM extractor and sear. It was determined after a while that many of the malfunctions this gun was experiencing were due to the fact that these critical parts were failing due to the rigorous action of the 10mm round because MIM parts aren't nearly as durable as forged parts.

    There have been rumors that the S&W 1076 was actually based on a 9mm platform. This is not true. It was a unique receiver, machined specifically for this model, and it's dimensions and specs are somewhere between S&W's platforms of similar design for their 9mm and .45acp models. Instead of using a platform which was proven for .45acp +P loads (which is essentially what Colt did with the Delta Elite), S&W designed a receiver/frame that had rail strength and linkage points similar to their .45acp, but had a profile more like their 9mm models. This under-engineered frame certainly contributes to the perceived recoil of the S&W 1076, and may also contribute to long-term reliability issues.

    Another drawback to the S&W 1076 is that is has a low capacity for a duty-carry semitauto of only 9 rounds. Supposedly, the Bureau issued some 11 and 15 shot magazines, but they are nearly impossible to find, and none were ever made for the civilian market. At 40oz, with only a 9-shot capacity, the S&W 1076 is a lot of gun with not a lot of capacity compared to other similar platforms like the Para Ords in.40S&W or .45acp or the 10mm Glocks.

    So there are a LOT of reasons the Bureau dropped the S&W 1076 in 10mm. Almost none of them have to do with it's "perceived recoil" being to high.

    Let's bury that myth already.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  14. #14
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Well, as a 10mm owner for over 20 yrs and knowing how and why the 40SW was developed you should be prepared to hear the truth as it is told.


    edit:
    Before you continue this debate you might want to readthe November 1989 issue of "FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin" which discusses the agency's testing process and subsequent decision to select the 10mm Auto as its primary cartridge for its agents.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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