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Odd OC incident in Cabela's (video)

S

SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC

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Hello Sir:

I posted a reply to the video and read your post. My name is Matt and I am the owner of Sovereign Arms LLC St. Louis, MO.

I respect your statement, and I had a gentleman in our store once who wanted to pull out a loaded firearm to check a holster fit. He asked if he could first, and when I asked him if he could hand me his entire firearm in the holster so I could clear it he refused. I then asked if he would take it outside to his vehicle, unload it, and bring it back inside if I gave him a pistol rug or could he open the action take out the mag and point the pistol straight up in the air. Again he refused. I told him that is the only way you are going to be allowed to bring the firearm in the store. He decided to leave. I would rather lose a holster sale than take the chance of someone being shot in our store . We are VERY pro open carry. However gun safety should be the absolute highest regard of every firearms owner. Loaded firearms can be unholstered and uncased inside the range inside the booth; or in an emergency need to defend oneself. It is extremely problematic for anyone to pull out a loaded firearm in a public place.

We have even had LEOs come in our store and do it. NO excuse for anyone. It's just better to be safe. We don't know who is pulling out loaded firearms and or what there intent is. I hope that can help you see a different perspective and I hope that makes sense. Sincerely,
 
sohighlyunlikely

sohighlyunlikely

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Thank You Matt of SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC,

Your policy is exactly what I was expecting a store who sells guns to have. I brought the gun in unloaded. I let them know that. I approached them on the easiest way to fit check the holster. I had no problem with the managerunholstering it and safety checking it in his office forhimself even. It was the fact the manager would not let it be re-holstered till I was out on the sidewalk outside. I found that odd and uncalled for. I never even touched my gun while in their store. IMO It makes no sense to me that I caught any flack for my actions.

Doc
 
S

SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC

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, Missouri, USA
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I would have not had a problem handing the firearm back to you either way. The problem would be, in a public venue, letting the client reload the firearm in store. I have been next to 1000's of clients/students in the CCW classes we teach, and when someone racks the slide and chamber's a round, I have seen over and over people have their finger on the trigger. In store reloading has the high probability of someone getting hurt or killed. That is why I put these procedures in place.

Thanks for the PM, and we need and appreciate YOUR referrals!
 
Big Boy

Big Boy

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I agree not in public. I had no problem stepping back into a room. If I wanted to do it in front of everybody I would have just done it without asking.
 
S

SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC

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, Missouri, USA
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Taking that approach without asking would not go over in our store very well at all. We get very excited when people take any liberty outside our protocols in our own store. It's dangerous and disrespectful. Maybe I misunderstood your comment about just doing it without asking, however if someone pulls out a firearm without assistance in our store and doesn't comply with staff to immediately reholster or re case the firearm; there is a high probability we would engage that individual with a taser or our own loaded firearm. The client could have no ill intention whatsoever, yet we have no idea. Again it would be very dangerous and disrespectful to the business and other clients to ever pull out a firearm loaded or unloaded with out checking with the staff of that facility first.
 
Beerme

Beerme

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SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC wrote:
Hello There Guys:

Matt at Sovereign Arms LLC in St. Louis, MO. I am the owner of our store and we are very pro open carry in the store. What I will not allow is for anyone to unholster or uncase a firearm inside the store without staff assistance.

We have had several incidents in the store where people have unholstered loaded firearms without asking or giving any fore warning; we had one Friday of last week. A gentleman comes in whom I have seen in our store several times. He is open carrying... again not a problem. We have huge signs on both doors as you enter the store. These are the only signs on the doors and they state" DO NOT uncase or unholster any firearms without staff assistance." Pretty clear and concise.

The man pulls out his loaded firearm ( his finger was outside the trigger guard) and begins to "show" it to one of our instructors behind the counter. The instructor immediately tells the man to holster the firearm and repeats herself three or four times very loudly. Instead of holstering the firearm the man begins to start taking out the magazine at which time he takes out the magazine and hands it to my employee who is still telling him to holster the firearm. He finally holstered the firearm when I came over and told him to holster it. He then took it back out and swept my employee when she handed his magazine back to him. I was not sure if there was a round in the chamber or not, however I told him to never draw his firearm out of the holster in the store again like that.

We have no idea who might pull out a firearm to rob us, or just using poor muzzle direction and or having a negligent discharge, might shoot one of us or another patron in the store. Whipping out a loaded firearm is absolutely about the worst action any gun owner could do inside a gun store. ( I did not see you do this at all in your video) However, there is absolutely NO reason for a client to draw the firearm out of the holster inside a gun store other than in selfdefense.

If a client comes into our store OC/ccw and wants to see if a firearm fits in a holster, our protocol is to ask the client if they can remove the holster and firearm together without drawing out the firearm. If so.. no problem. Our staff will take the holstered firearm behind the counter; and unholster it using proper muzzle direction; then safely unload the firearm, double verify it is unloaded with another staff member. We then leave the ammunition and holster secured behind the counter and then assist the client in finding the most effective holster for their firearm.

After we have satisfied the needs of our client and they have checked out, I will normally holster their firearm for them( unloaded) and hand their holster, magazine, and any cartridge left over, and politely ask them to reload when they return to their vehicle.

I could not tell from the video if the firearm was loaded ( chambered or not) What I saw in the video when you first walked into Cabella's would not have been a problem in our store. However, had you unholstered the firearm without checking with us first, that could quickly turn into a disaster.

I hope that gives a good perspective from the side of the store owner. Again we are VERY pro open carry, I open carry everywhere I legally can and we are also very concerned with safety in our store.

SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC is a licensed federal firearms dealer/Sig Sauer Direct/Glock/Springfield Armory stocking dealer/Cold Steel knive/sword distributor/Night Force Scopes distributor/TASER INTERNATIONAL/ distributor/ St. Louis' largest LWRC Distributor/ MO/FL CCW instructors NRA PPITH/PPOTH instructors. We have an indoor pistol range on sight. E commerce store and retail store shipping nationwide firearms/ accessories/ammunition. http://WWW.SOVEREIGNARMS.COM
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Very Very well put
 
Big Boy

Big Boy

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SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC wrote:
Taking that approach without asking would not go over in our store very well at all. We get very excited when people take any liberty outside our protocols in our own store. It's dangerous and disrespectful. Maybe I misunderstood your comment about just doing it without asking, however if someone pulls out a firearm without assistance in our store and doesn't comply with staff to immediately reholster or re case the firearm; there is a high probability we would engage that individual with a taser or our own loaded firearm. The client could have no ill intention whatsoever, yet we have no idea. Again it would be very dangerous and disrespectful to the business and other clients to ever pull out a firearm loaded or unloaded with out checking with the staff of that facility first.
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That was my point, that's why I asked. So they would take you some where private.
 
L

LMTD

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I find this a concerning situation. No offence to the OP, opinions vary on a lot of topics and this is mine, no disrespect pointed, aimed or fired your direction :)

1. There is no such thing as an "unloaded firearm" unless I have proven it to myself without regard for the skill known or level of respect I have for the person saying so.

2 Having another remove my firearm from my holster unless I was completely incapacitated to do so would be something I consider an extremely dangerous act.

3 Entering a public venue with a firearm I intended upon displaying or test fitting would warrant extreme caution and out of respect for all others present, the firearm would be disabled in such a way that was obvious to anyone.

Despite any insult the OP may feel, IMHO the management handled a potentially unsafe situation with sound judgment with good safety protocol and deserve praise not scorn.

While actively OC a firearm may be a good demonstration for those whom do not fully understand the right and laws, doing so with the full intent of unholstering that firearm in a public venue is little more than an example for those whom oppose our rights of why such things should not be allowed and evidence to demonstrate that not all firearms owners express good judgment.

I am sorry if you feel this was/is an attack, but I honestly believe your example is one of what not to do and would suggest removal of the video and thread before it gives the anti's more motivation.
 
sohighlyunlikely

sohighlyunlikely

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LMTD,

I understand your opinion though I may not agree with it, and ifmost people feel this video to becounter productive then I would hold no hard feelings to you partitioning the forum monitor to remove the whole thread.If that does happen I hold no hard feelings and will not complain or re-post it. Though I find it unlikely that he will remove it. Because I feel most rational people understand that a firearm if treated with respect is no less dangerous than the car you drive every day.

My only issue with Cabela's was that the firearm was not re-holstered in the gun room managers office. I would have even understood if he had said he was uncomfortable and didn't want to fit it at all

Doc
 
G

goalseter88

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i dont think this gives the anti gun ppl any motivation the way he went threw the process. now had he tried pulling his gun out without even asking if it be ok etc that be a whole different story. his video only shows some problems with the stores policies. i think the anti gun ppl would be beter off with that crappy youtube video that was posted on here that the anti gun ppl made then this video.
 
L

LMTD

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sohighlyunlikely wrote:
LMTD,

Because I feel most rational people understand that a firearm if treated with respect is no less dangerous than the car you drive every day.

My only issue with Cabela's was that the firearm was not re-holstered in the gun room managers office. I would have even understood if he had said he was uncomfortable and didn't want to fit it at all

Doc
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While I completely agree with your position on cars, I offer that is a direct result of irresponsible actions upon the part of many drivers, not the car itself.

The manner in which the employee carried the weapon to the door, Breech locked open, magazine out was IMHO a better choice than putting it into the holster of another person.

Even at the range, never hand a weapon to another that is not disabled. Placing it on the table, muzzle forward, let them pick it up sure, but never hand it to another with the breech closed.

The holstering or unholstering of a weapon regardless of the thoughts on status should involve only 1 person. If I am handing a weapon to you or vice versa, I would expect if it slipped, both of us would attempt to "catch it". open breech renders it a lot less likely to be a disaster, does not eliminate, but increases the safety factor several levels.

I will not request the thread be closed, I shared my thoughts freely, you are just as free to share yours and make your own decisions without any help from me, you not agreeing with me does not make you wrong, it simply makes your opinion different from mine.

I did not and do not want to imply something unsafe happened, I saw nothing of the sort. I simply expressed that I do not think the highest levels of safety were taken and while you may have plenty of confidence in the employee whom unholstered your weapon, I do not. Many folks consider LEO's competent, but I have personally witnessed a LEO struggle significantly to unload a pump shotgun in a crowded area. Just because someone works at the gun counter or has the title of manager does not mean I have any idea if they are qualified to handle weapons responsibly, I hope they do but it will still pass hands locked open.
 
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