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Thread: gun amount showing

  1. #1
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    i was wondering under michigan law how much gun has to show during open carry i cant find it any where i use a crossbreed iwb for conceal carry can i use it for oc

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    You can't find it because it doesn't exist.

    If you do NOT have a CPL most of us would recommend you NOT open carry in an IWB holster since some officers and prosecutors would consider that concealed.

    If you DO have a CPLmost of us would recommend that you NOT open carry in an IWB holster in any establishment that earns the majority of its income by the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the premises, i.e. abar or tavern, since some officers and prosecutors would consider that form of carry to be concealed.

    It is a grey area in the law that isn't defined and as of now there isn't any case law that we can look to for precedent. My suggestion is that if you want to open carry then get an OWB retention holster and open carry. If you want to conceal then stick with the IWB and conceal, but do one or the other not a nebulous undefined hodge-podge of both.

    Bronson

    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    If anyone is going to OC, Then it has to be Holstered in a OTW Holster UNLESS the person has a CPL. Even if someone has a CPL, Carrying with a IWB Holster really ISN`T considered OC.



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    Bronson wrote:
    You can't find it because it doesn't exist.

    If you do NOT have a CPL most of us would recommend you NOT open carry in an IWB holster since some officers and prosecutors would consider that concealed.

    If you DO have a CPLmost of us would recommend that you NOT open carry in an IWB holster in any establishment that earns the majority of its income by the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the premises, i.e. abar or tavern, since some officers and prosecutors would consider that form of carry to be concealed.

    It is a grey area in the law that isn't defined and as of now there isn't any case law that we can look to for precedent. My suggestion is that if you want to open carry then get an OWB retention holster and open carry. If you want to conceal then stick with the IWB and conceal, but do one or the other not a nebulous undefined hodge-podge of both.

    Bronson
    What is wrong with OC and CC at the same time? I know many people that OC 1 or 2 Handguns, And CC 1 or 2 more. I don`t see a problem if you want to carry 4 Guns with half OC, And the other half CC, I don't see a problem with having all 4 IWB with the Grip sticking out either.

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    if you want to be safe OCing, but you only have an IWB holster..
    wear it outside the pants, but inside the belt!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    wally1120 wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    You can't find it because it doesn't exist.

    If you do NOT have a CPL most of us would recommend you NOT open carry in an IWB holster since some officers and prosecutors would consider that concealed.

    If you DO have a CPLmost of us would recommend that you NOT open carry in an IWB holster in any establishment that earns the majority of its income by the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the premises, i.e. abar or tavern, since some officers and prosecutors would consider that form of carry to be concealed.

    It is a grey area in the law that isn't defined and as of now there isn't any case law that we can look to for precedent. My suggestion is that if you want to open carry then get an OWB retention holster and open carry. If you want to conceal then stick with the IWB and conceal, but do one or the other not a nebulous undefined hodge-podge of both.

    Bronson
    What is wrong with OC and CC at the same time? I know many people that OC 1 or 2 Handguns, And CC 1 or 2 more. I don`t see a problem if you want to carry 4 Guns with half OC, And the other half CC, I don't see a problem with having all 4 IWB with the Grip sticking out either.
    Perhaps it was poorly worded on my part. I too will often OC one gun and CC another but I meant that each individual gun should be either solidlydefinable as either OC or CC.

    And to be blunt it makes no difference what you, me, or most others believe the interpretation of the law should be, a courtdecision willneed to be reachedor the law amended to make it more clear. Until then we can make all the assumptions we want but the truth is we justdon't know howeach individual prosecutor, judge, or jury would interpretthis issue.

    You can push it if you want but I say either CC it or OC it but don't let yourself get stuck in the grey area in between, for there be dragons.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Sometimes I believe folks think too much..... and overthink the whole thing...

    When someone says "open carry" what picture comes to mind? Generally a person with a gun, in a holster, with gun and holster in plain view, on their hip. Kinda like a cowboy of old.... or an LEO of today.

    It seems to me to be common sense that anything less... or anything that is half right out there in plain sight and half concealed.. isn't true open carry but is a blend of open and concealed.

    Should that be legal? Many of us have the opinion that any and all methods of carrying a gun should be legal.... but there is a vast difference between "opinion of should" and what the court system will define as is..... is.

    What should a person do then? Seems to me (my opinion) that it is easier on the psyche to just buy an outside the waistband holster that can be worn so the gun and holster are right out there in plain view.... and go on with life without having to worry about who gets to define what is...... is.

    Especially when one realizes that the cost of a new holster is far cheaper than the cost of being the test case that defines what is.... is.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    If you DO have a CPLmost of us would recommend that you NOT open carry in an IWB holster in any establishment that earns the majority of its income by the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the premises, i.e. abar or tavern . . .

    Not only a bar ortavern, but also the otherplaces defined by law as being off-limits to lawful concealed carry. School and school property, day care/child caring/child placing facility, sports arena or stadium, religious property/facility, entertainment facility with seating for 2,500 or more, hospital, or college dorm or classroom.

    In all of those other places, too, if you have a CPL you cannot legally CC but you canlegally OC. To stay out of the gray area (unless you have the time and money to be a potential test case) do not OC with an IWB holster and make sure your clothing is unquestionably unable to cover the gun even partially.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    There is case law that defines what "concealed" is.

    Open carry is what "concealed" is not.

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    If you're going to open carry you should do so with an OWB holster and no clothing that is going to drape over or cover the firearm in any way. This is most important if you dont have a CPL because you want to avoid any impropriety and not give officers a reason for considering your firearm concealed. As for people with CPL's the concern would be similar because if you can be considered concealing you will have to act as if it's concealed and then be responsible for 1.) Disclosure to LEOs 2.) Not being in a PFZ ... The KEY thing to remember here is if you're going to open carry do a CLEAN open carry. By clean I mean use an OWB holster and keep any material of clothing away from your firearms. Failure to do so can be probable cause for an officer to charge you for being in violation. It's also recommended to carry a voice recorder and/or a micro video DVR. (these things are inexpensive and can be bought on EBay) This way if you're falsely accused you will be able to have additional evidence to prove that you were lawful and in compliance with the law. I know several people who wishes now they had a video recorder going at the time of their LEO encounters.

    Mike

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    Frankly, because there is no statute prohibiting OC, I don't see why open carry requires a definition. Since there IS a statute prohibiting CC, then concealed carry needs to be defined. Further, since the legislature failed to define CC, in a gross negligence of their duties, then we are in the unfortunate position of having to rely on case law. As Zigziggityzoo points out, though I'm not familiar with it, we already have a case law definition, even if some PAs choose to ignore it. Can a court willfully ignore it?

    Zig, would you be so kind as to provide us with that case law definition?

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    thank you for the responces to my question i talked the state police on it and they stated that the gun has to be in holster on out side of pants in full veiw like cowboy gun carry he wasnt happy to answer but he did

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    rcf wrote:
    i talked the state police on it and they stated that the gun has to be in holster on out side of pants in full veiw
    Keep in mind that that is an opinion. It is not codified or case law. OC in an IWB holster may very well be ultimately held to be "not concealed carry" either by future legislation or trial outcomes.

    However, as you see, currently some agencies may charge you with a CCW violation based on their opinion. Which is why we recommend, until legislation or case law makes it clear or you have the time and money to be the test case, do not OCoutside of your private propertywith an IWB holster if you do not have a CPL, or into CC PFZ's if you do have a CPL.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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