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Thread: Immigration bill is very dangerous

  1. #1
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    New law allows people to travel through Arizona without "papers" while armed.

    Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit

    A new bill that is on the governors desk could mean EVERYONE needs to carry papers, armed or not.

    Arizona Illegal-Immigrant Law Draws Strong Opposition

    I post this hear because this bill could wipe out any gains made in Arizona on the Second Amendment with the newly enacted constitutional carry law. This "immigration" bill is a blank check to stop anyone for anything. If I go to Arizona while armed and some police officer takes offense to that I could be stopped for looking a little bit too "Canadian". I could then be detained until I prove that I am a citizen, or legitimate visitor, of the USA. I don't typically carry my birth certificate or passport while I travel within the USA but this law might require that I do.

    This law is clearly unconstitutional since it is a "guilty until proven innocent" law and is dangerous to our right to arms, our right to travel, our right to assemble, and a whole lot more. This bill should be opposed most vociferously.

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    IA_farmboy wrote:
    New law allows people to travel through Arizona without "papers" while armed.

    Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit

    A new bill that is on the governors desk could mean EVERYONE needs to carry papers, armed or not.

    Arizona Illegal-Immigrant Law Draws Strong Opposition

    I post this hear because this bill could wipe out any gains made in Arizona on the Second Amendment with the newly enacted constitutional carry law. This "immigration" bill is a blank check to stop anyone for anything. If I go to Arizona while armed and some police officer takes offense to that I could be stopped for looking a little bit too "Canadian". I could then be detained until I prove that I am a citizen, or legitimate visitor, of the USA. I don't typically carry my birth certificate or passport while I travel within the USA but this law might require that I do.

    This law is clearly unconstitutional since it is a "guilty until proven innocent" law and is dangerous to our right to arms, our right to travel, our right to assemble, and a whole lot more. This bill should be opposed most vociferously.
    I don't look at it that way. I'll bet the majority of us who live in Arizona don't see it that way either. From what I see the only ones against the bill aren't to keen on the Sovereignty of Arizona either.

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    I live here and don't like the idea of (potentially) having to show proof of citizenship.

    I'm a pretty basic boring old white guy so it ain't like I'll be mistaken for a furriner of any sort, but it completely wrong to expect a citizen who's skin tone doesn't match mine to prove they're 'just like me'.

    I seriously doubt an AZLEO will (a) take offense to you being armed unless you're a jerk or (b) come up with "you look too Canadian so show me some papers". But still this is pretty sad.

    Oh and just to be clear: citizens of this country should not have to carry papers. Illegal Aliens - criminals in violation of our laws - should be hauled to the border and sent packing. The whole idea of calling them "undocumented workers" is a friggin joke and an insult to the millions of people who entered this country legally and worked their asses off to earn citizenship. To now tell those same folk "prove it every time you are out in public" is a disgrace.

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    Why is it every time Arizona pushes an Immigration law in efforts to halt the wave of ILLEGAL Mexicans storming our border, we receive an out of state post blast our legislation.

    Ya' got illegals overrunning and trashing Iowa? Didn't think so.

    Papers? If you drive a motor vehicle, or seek medical care, or cash a check, or use a Credit Card for a major purchase, or purchase a firearm, you better carry papers.

    Thanks for the advice Iowa, but we in Arizona don't need your advice.

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    I could be wrong so someone correct me if I am, but I seem to remember hearing that in AZ you are required to possess a form of government issued photo ID at all times regardless. It must be presented to any LEO that requests it (if he has probable cause of something). This is why we offer a "Identification Card" at our MVDs.

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    I live in AZ and fully support the bill, we are literally being invaded by Mexico!
    Freedom isn't free, but this is America! We will find a way to outsource it and save some money - Jeremy

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    lostone1413 wrote
    I don't look at it that way. I'll bet the majority of us who live in Arizona don't see it that way either. From what I see the only ones against the bill aren't to keen on the Sovereignty of Arizona either.
    It doesn't matter what a majority of Arizonans want in this particular case. The 4th amendment via the 14th amendment is clear on this subject: You may not require people to travel with "their papers" and then throw them in a tank because they refuse to hand over identification to a law enforcement officer. Arizona has a stop and identify statute which I am copying down below in it's entirety.

    A. It is unlawful for a person, after being advised that the person's refusal to answer is unlawful, to fail or refuse to state the person's true full name on request of a peace officer who has lawfully detained the person based on reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. A person detained under this section shall state the person's true full name, but shall not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of a peace officer.
    B. A person who violates this section is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.

    This is in compliance with Hiible v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. What it is amended to with this law doesn't comply with Hiible and Kolender. It is unconstitutional. If you don't like this fact, then petition Congress to amend the US constitution or get together a constitutional convention to pass an amendment under Article V.

    ...and before you tar me with "you're not from Arizona" that you did with IA_Farmboy, I am a proudly born Arizonan who lives in the state which Arizona copied it's state RKBA provision word for word from (AZ state was formed in 1910, WA State was formed in 1889). When Arizona agreed to be part of the United States, it added this to the constitution in Article 2, Section 1:

    Section 3. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land.

    The Arizona State government and it's political subdivisions must honor the constitution of the United States.


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    It was my understanding the NEW law passed in Arizona was such that If an officer had RAS that an individual was ILLEGAL then he would begin an investigation into such....

    IS THIS NOT THE GIST OF THE NEW LAW?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    I seriously doubt an AZLEO will (a) take offense to you being armed unless you're a jerk or (b) come up with "you look too Canadian so show me some papers". But still this is pretty sad.
    Last I checked it was not illegal to be a jerk. I doubt it could happen as well but I don't like the implications of this law.

    Yes, it is sad.

    Ya' got illegals overrunning and trashing Iowa?
    Yes.

    Papers? If you drive a motor vehicle, or seek medical care, or cash a check, or use a Credit Card for a major purchase, or purchase a firearm, you better carry papers.
    Yes you do need papers for that. Problem is that the bill would require papers for everything else too.

    Thanks for the advice Iowa, but we in Arizona don't need your advice.
    That's fine, I'm just giving fair warning. I just hope I don't have to come back with an "I told ya so" at some future date.

    I could be wrong so someone correct me if I am, but I seem to remember hearing that in AZ you are required to possess a form of government issued photo ID at all times regardless. It must be presented to any LEO that requests it (if he has probable cause of something)
    I doubt that is true but I'd be interested in seeing any law that requires one carry a state issued ID for just walking down the street.

    This is why we offer a "Identification Card" at our MVDs.
    Well, if every adult is required to carry ID then it would be logical to offer said ID to the public. However, I don't think they offer it because it is required but merely because it comes in handy for things like cashing a check, purchasing a firearm, buying alcohol or tobacco products, and so on for those not permitted to drive.

    ...we are literally being invaded by Mexico!
    Irrelevant. This is still a bad bill. I recall a certain American in our history saying something about the dangers of trading liberty for safety. Perhaps someone can recall who said that and the exact quote.

    It was my understanding the NEW law passed in Arizona was such that If an officer had RAS that an individual was ILLEGAL then he would begin an investigation into such....

    IS THIS NOT THE GIST OF THE NEW LAW?
    Sounds about right. The problem is how does one determine a person is in the country illegally by just looking at them? What constitutes "reasonable suspicion" for interrogating a person on their citizenship?

    Here's some good reading for everyone:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

    Here's an interesting part from that web page:
    However, reasonable suspicion may not apply merely because a person refuses to answer questions, declines to allow a voluntary search, or is of a suspected race or ethnicity.
    Any officer that actually enforces this law is going to have to go against a whole pile of judicial precedent if anyone gets the nerve to challenge any resulting arrest in court.

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    IA FARMBOY,



    I would appreciate that IF you are going to quote ME then give proper attribute and not add my comments lumped into a whole conglomerate of comments made by others. I will ONLY held liable for what I have said, and not for the comments of others!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    I think it's great that a healthy debate is roaring on here about the immigration law. Personally I have mixed feelings on it.

    I live near El Paso, TX (moving to PHX this week), and it gets pretty annoying having to stop and be detained momentarily at the Border Patrol checkpoints. I've read the relevant cases and SCOTUS basically admits that the detention without probable cause is a violation of the 4th Amendment, but they really really really really need to do it so it's OK. This is the same treatment the Second Amendment gets, and neither makes me happy at all.

    But at the same time we have a federal government that has proven repeatedly that they don't give a damn about border security, and things like the death of that rancher last month is what we have to show for it. I personally know some ranchers in the bootheel of NM and right nearby in AZ who have to put up with this crap every day. If the Feds won't do it, somebody has to pick up the slack.

    So basically if the Feds were doing their job, Arizona wouldn't even be debating such laws.

    Like Burt Gummer says in one of the Tremors movies: "Why don't you guys just go do what you do best? Go find something simple and complicate it."

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    Regular Member TOF's Avatar
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    The Bill may be dangerous but so is the INVASION.
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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    TOF wrote:
    The Bill may be dangerous but so is the INVASION.
    I agree! Maybe the Gov needs to restart the state militia. She could put them on the borders with shoot to kill orders. What really gets me is when you see down in Phoenix area people demonstrating against cracking down on the illegals you see all of them waving Mexican Flags. Shows me how must they are loyal to this country

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    GWbiker wrote:
    Why is it every time Arizona pushes an Immigration law in efforts to halt the wave of ILLEGAL Mexicans storming our border, we receive an out of state post blast our legislation.
    It could be because the OP is exactly right: this law is designed to make everyone carry papers while in AZ. This is a blank check for any LEO to harass any person they have a problem with until they show ID. You don't have a problem with that? Papiere, bitte.

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    TOF wrote:
    The Bill may be dangerous but so is the INVASION.
    The bill **MAY** be dangerous, but it's a step in the right direction.

    What really bugs me is the unwanted advice from, say Iowa, where a PERMIT is required to OC a handgun and those subjects gotta' kiss a Sheriff's a$$ for a permit to CC. There's no "Shall Issue" law in Iowa.

    Damn it outsiders; Get yer' own house in order before you preach to the citizens of Arizona.

    /rant.

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    lostone1413 wrote:
    TOF wrote:
    The Bill may be dangerous but so is the INVASION.
    I agree! Maybe the Gov needs to restart the state militia. She could put them on the borders with shoot to kill orders. What really gets me is when you see down in Phoenix area people demonstrating against cracking down on the illegals you see all of them waving Mexican Flags. Shows me how must they are loyal to this country

    All kudos to Brewer for the mess she's had to untangle in Nappy's wake, but if shedoesn't have 'what it takes' to do what's right for AZ, I'm pretty certain of an upcoming candidate who does: Owen 'Buz' Mills He's a Shooting School Owner, NRA Board Member & USMC Veteran. Hubby met him this past week at the Tea Party in Tucson...he sounds like the person we need in the Gov's office. (IMHO) Here's a link from just over a year ago when he was up for the vote to become an NRA Board Member.

    Here's also a quote from his mailer that came out last week: "Buz opposes any sort of amnesty or taxpayer funding for illegal immigrants. With billion dollar deficits, our state cannot afford the financial burden of those who come into our state illiegally." Can you imagine the kind of money that would free up to use on US/AZ Citizens? Gee, maybe it would eliminate that bogus need for the'temporary' 1% tax called for in Prop. 100.

    The Republican Primary will be held August 24th. Mr. Mills definitely has our vote.


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    Regular Member TOF's Avatar
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    Do a search on reconquista and Aztlan if you wish to understand there is an invasion underway that needs to be stopped.
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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    I'll carry whatever the hell they want. We've got an invasion down here. All the academic hysterics aside... Showin' a drivers license w/picture isn't the worst thing in the world. Most places you have to do that to cash a check. As for the Iowa guy... stay home or go someplace else.

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    GWbiker wrote:
    TOF wrote:
    The Bill may be dangerous but so is the INVASION.
    The bill **MAY** be dangerous, but it's a step in the right direction.

    What really bugs me is the unwanted advice from, say Iowa, where a PERMIT is required to OC a handgun and those subjects gotta' kiss a Sheriff's a$$ for a permit to CC. There's no "Shall Issue" law in Iowa.

    Damn it outsiders; Get yer' own house in order before you preach to the citizens of Arizona.

    /rant.
    I'm with you :celebrate
    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    I'll carry whatever the hell they want.* We've got an invasion down here. All the academic hysterics aside... Showin' a drivers license w/picture isn't the worst thing in the world.
    For the love of all that is free, yes it is. Every single totalitarian regime in the past hundred years has had that single fact alone in common! Requiring photo ID for persons on foot is a recipe for disaster.

    Most places you have to do that to cash a check
    There's a world of difference between the government demanding ID and a private institution requiring it as a condition of a transaction. The latter is a voluntary, private transaction; the former, overt tyranny. I can elect not to use banks if I don't want to show them my ugly mug on a piece of plastic. If I don't show ID to an Arizona LEO, I could be deported, and my family has been here since the Revolutionary War!

    Why do you revere your chains so much?

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    HungSquirrel wrote:
    There's a world of difference between the government demanding ID and a private institution requiring it as a condition of a transaction.
    How about Alabama gun owners having to kiss a Sheriff a$$ for a ONE year gun permit to carry? And not being able to CC/OC at public demonstrations, political rallies or wildlife areas. How's 'dem chains in Alabama?

    Ya' got lot's of gun rights work before you in Alabama, so better not waste any time here...

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    So, you think your state's requirement to show papiere doesn't affect people traveling there? Are you morally opposed to liberty-loving* citizens visiting your state? Because that is precisely what your new law has done. I will never set foot in a territory whose government requires law-abiding citizens to carry identification while on foot.

    Of course, I hold similar prejudice against states who restrict the rest of my rights. The list of states I find tolerable is shrinking by the day because fools do nothing to defend what little liberty they have left, thinking it's no big deal.

    * To distinguish myself from the commies to your west.

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    Having lived most of my life in Arizona, I look upon this new bill with disgust. It is a violation of the 4th Amendment...PERIOD. If the goal is to slow Illegal Immigration (Which I wholeheartedly support), then take their incentive away from coming here. We all know the Feds could care less how much Human Debris invades our country. Start prosecuting and jailing employers who do not use eVerify. Eliminate all social programs for those that can not prove their citizenship. These 2 measures will solve the problem without growing Arizona's Police State any further. Instead, the geniuses at the State House want a return to "Your Papers Please". We are not Nazi Germany, nor are we Stalinist Russia...OK, so maybe just California...but not us.

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    HungSquirrel wrote:
    So, you think your state's requirement to show papiere doesn't affect people traveling there? Are you morally opposed to liberty-loving* citizens visiting your state? Because that is precisely what your new law has done. I will never set foot in a territory whose government requires law-abiding citizens to carry identification while on foot.

    Of course, I hold similar prejudice against states who restrict the rest of my rights. The list of states I find tolerable is shrinking by the day because fools do nothing to defend what little liberty they have left, thinking it's no big deal.

    * To distinguish myself from the commies to your west.
    Nice side step, but still have GUN OWNERS RIGHTS work to do in your own state. (This is a gun forum, ya' know)

    Say, is "Bull" Conner still around?

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    Firepower wrote:
    Having lived most of my life in Arizona, I look upon this new bill with disgust. It is a violation of the 4th Amendment...PERIOD. If the goal is to slow Illegal Immigration (Which I wholeheartedly support), then take their incentive away from coming here. We all know the Feds could care less how much Human Debris invades our country. Start prosecuting and jailing employers who do not use eVerify. Eliminate all social programs for those that can not prove their citizenship. These 2 measures will solve the problem without growing Arizona's Police State any further. Instead, the geniuses at the State House want a return to "Your Papers Please". We are not Nazi Germany, nor are we Stalinist Russia...OK, so maybe just California...but not us.
    You've lived in Arizona most of your life and you post your location as Colorado? Do you have any idea just where you are?

    Damn, the free advice on non-gun related topics just keeps on coming.....

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