Immigration bill is very dangerous

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HungSquirrel wrote:

There's a world of difference between the government demanding ID and a private institution requiring it as a condition of a transaction.

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How about Alabama gun owners having to kiss a Sheriff a$$ for a ONE year gun permit to carry? And not being able to CC/OC at public demonstrations, political rallies or wildlife areas. How's 'dem chains in Alabama?

Ya' got lot's of gun rights work before you in Alabama, so better not waste any time here...

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So, you think your state's requirement to show papiere doesn't affect people traveling there? Are you morally opposed to liberty-loving* citizens visiting your state? Because that is precisely what your new law has done. I will never set foot in a territory whose government requires law-abiding citizens to carry identification while on foot.

Of course, I hold similar prejudice against states who restrict the rest of my rights. The list of states I find tolerable is shrinking by the day because fools do nothing to defend what little liberty they have left, thinking it's no big deal.

* To distinguish myself from the commies to your west.

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Having lived most of my life in Arizona, I look upon this new bill with disgust. It is a violation of the 4th Amendment...PERIOD. If the goal is to slow Illegal Immigration (Which I wholeheartedly support), then take their incentive away from coming here. We all know the Feds could care less how much Human Debris invades our country. Start prosecuting and jailing employers who do not use eVerify. Eliminate all social programs for those that can not prove their citizenship. These 2 measures will solve the problem without growing Arizona's Police State any further. Instead, the geniuses at the State House want a return to "Your Papers Please". We are not Nazi Germany, nor are we Stalinist Russia...OK, so maybe just California...but not us.

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HungSquirrel wrote:

So, you think your state's requirement to show papiere doesn't affect people traveling there? Are you morally opposed to liberty-loving* citizens visiting your state? Because that is precisely what your new law has done. I will never set foot in a territory whose government requires law-abiding citizens to carry identification while on foot.

Of course, I hold similar prejudice against states who restrict the rest of my rights. The list of states I find tolerable is shrinking by the day because fools do nothing to defend what little liberty they have left, thinking it's no big deal.

* To distinguish myself from the commies to your west.

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Nice side step, but still have GUN OWNERS RIGHTS work to do in your own state. (This is a gun forum, ya' know)

Say, is "Bull" Conner still around?

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Firepower wrote:

Having lived most of my life in Arizona, I look upon this new bill with disgust. It is a violation of the 4th Amendment...PERIOD. If the goal is to slow Illegal Immigration (Which I wholeheartedly support), then take their incentive away from coming here. We all know the Feds could care less how much Human Debris invades our country. Start prosecuting and jailing employers who do not use eVerify. Eliminate all social programs for those that can not prove their citizenship. These 2 measures will solve the problem without growing Arizona's Police State any further. Instead, the geniuses at the State House want a return to "Your Papers Please". We are not Nazi Germany, nor are we Stalinist Russia...OK, so maybe just California...but not us.

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You've lived in Arizona most of your life and you post your location as Colorado? Do you have any idea just where you are?

Damn, the free advice on non-gun related topics just keeps on coming.....:banghead:

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Nice side step, but still have GUN OWNERS RIGHTS work to do in your own state. (This is a gun forum, ya' know)

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Are you unable to fathom how this law is OC-related? This law has, in effect, made OC licensed in your state, undoing the recent "constitutional carry law" and then some. If a LEO sees someone OCing, he can claim he has reasonable articulable suspicion that an illegal is carrying a gun in violation of law. He can then demand to see ID to prove the OCer is not an illegal. If the law-abiding liberty-loving American citizen does not have ID on him to prove he is not an illegal, he can be deported! Why someone would welcome such tyranny boggles the mind.

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HungSquirrel wrote:

Nice side step, but still have GUN OWNERS RIGHTS work to do in your own state. (This is a gun forum, ya' know)

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Are you unable to fathom how this law is OC-related? This law has, in effect, made OC licensed in your state, undoing the recent "constitutional carry law" and then some. If a LEO sees someone OCing, he can claim he has reasonable articulable suspicion that an illegal is carrying a gun in violation of law. He can then demand to see ID to prove the OCer is not an illegal. If the law-abiding liberty-loving American citizen does not have ID on him to prove he is not an illegal, he can be deported! Why someone would welcome such tyranny boggles the mind.

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You have NO IDEA how this new legislation, if passed, would play out. Plus, you're being a US citizen and as I recall understanding Spanish, this new Arizona law won't affect you.

Sooo, why don't you just BUTT out of Arizona's affairs, PLEASE?

BTW, I seem to recall tyranny against citizens of another color in Birmingham and in Selma during the 50's and 60's that boggled my mind.

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Something I have wondered about this subject and now this law is that we repeatedly say that a citizen of the US should not have to prove they are a citizen to travel or anything else while in this country. I approve of this completely. Then we say that illegal aliens should be rounded up and deported back to where ever they came from on the next bus, train etc.

The part that I have trouble figuring out is that how do we tell the difference. If someone sneaks in here from Mexico without seeing them cross the border how do we know if they are here legally or not? If someone makes it across the border and does not break any laws, apply for welfare, does not apply for a job, does not apply for a SS number etc. is it OK for them to stay permanently? In other words, if they never do anything that requires them to actually prove citizenship how will we ever know they are illegals to be deported. Basically if they never have to actually show a birth certificate and I don't know if I have ever had to show mine for anything, how will we ever find out that they should be deported? I think I may have had to have a birth certificate to get a marriage license and some public schools may require it to enroll now but that is the only time I can thing of. I did not need one to get a social security card or drivers license.

Any other times that a person would have to prove citizenship?

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A lot of vitriol for a simple farmboy trying to help his fellow Americans. At least some of you realize the possible fallout of this bill.

Are you unable to fathom how this law is OC-related? This law has, in effect, made OC licensed in your state, undoing the recent "constitutional carry law" and then some. If a LEO sees someone OCing, he can claim he has reasonable articulable suspicion that an illegal is carrying a gun in violation of law. He can then demand to see ID to prove the OCer is not an illegal. If the law-abiding liberty-loving American citizen does not have ID on him to prove he is not an illegal, he can be deported! Why someone would welcome such tyranny boggles the mind.

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The only thing I see wrong with the above is that a citizen of the USA cannot be deported since there is no place to deport them. No one can be deported until citizenship can be established. What could happen though is a person could be held until citizenship is established. For someone traveling from out of state that could take a while. Even a citizen of Arizona could be held for some time if that person did not carry any identification.

Everyone remember the people protesting outside of the auditorium where Obama was speaking? You know, those protestors carrying openly? And doing so without ID? That will come to an end if this bill is passed. Anyone doing so if this bill passes runs the risk of arrest for failure to prove citizenship when requested.

You might think that won't happen. Is that a risk you are willing to take? It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

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I have been required to show my birth certificate many times through the years.
Registration for each school attended K-12, drivers license, social security card, to join Navy, duplicate social security card in recent year, for employment, for passport, when applying for social security retirement even though I had a SS card plus more.

I did not consider any of those demands to be an infringement of my rights.

I have been required to obtain and show work permits for twin plant employment in Mexico plus identity and permits for entering Mexico to go fishing. Had I refused I would have been shot or jailed and all personal belongings stolen.

If an individual can not say US Citizen in English when asked their citizenship by the Border Patrol or local police they should be investigated to determine citizenship.

If 14 or so individuals jump out of a van pulled over for a traffic violation and start running, I believe they should be detained and investigated.

I also think a Birth Certificate should be produced to run for the office of President of the USA.

If you don't like the above you may not want to visit Arizona.

:X

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Arizona gun owners on this subforum face a pesky little problem which surfaces every few months which concerns outsiders who are so frustrated with their inability to correct second Amendment injustices within their own states.

Therefore, they TROLL on this subforum to question us about Arizona Immigration/Check Point issues, none of which should really interest them.

But here they come, with questions - never any answers....

Sooooooo......

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I don't see how this new bill could make AZ a "papers, comrade?" state. The standing ID statute only applies during a lawful detainment when there is already RAS of a crime committed, being committed or about to be committed. Not providing the required information is a misdemeanor only in that condition.

In short, being an illegal immigrant/illegal resident in AZ will be a crime, but for a LEO to demand ID they must first absolutely have RAS to detain then identify. There is no "gut feeling" or "assumption" clause to detain a person...

Unless this new bill will be a "circular logic" bill, granting authority based on a LEOs "feeling" or "presumption" to detain then stating said detention as lawful based on no RAS or PC. How can you present non-facts to a judge/jury? Last I heard "feelings" only counted in a CA courtroom...

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GWbiker wrote:
You have NO IDEA how this new legislation, if passed, would play out. Plus, you're being a US citizen and as I recall understanding Spanish, this new Arizona law won't affect you.

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As I already stated, it effects anyone who wishes to visit AZ and not carry papiere on his person while OCing. I had the pleasure of visiting New Mexico last year. I was planning on visiting your fine state, but I will not do so if I am required to carry papers or risk potential incarceration or deportation!

GWbiker wrote:
BTW, I seem to recall tyranny against citizens of another color in Birmingham and in Selma during the 50's and 60's that boggled my mind.

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I wasn't around for that. Probably a good thing; I would have likely voted from the rooftops.

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demnogis wrote:

In short, being an illegal immigrant/illegal resident in AZ will be a crime, but for a LEO to demand ID they must first absolutely have RAS to detain then identify. There is no "gut feeling" or "assumption" clause to detain a person...

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MariKafka County already uses "gut feelings" to detain brown people, even without this law!

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We already have more people here than necessary so just stay where you are and you will have no problem with Arizona law.

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GWbiker wrote:

Arizona gun owners on this subforum face a pesky little problem which surfaces every few months which concerns outsiders who are so frustrated with their inability to correct second Amendment injustices within their own states.

Therefore, they TROLL on this subforum to question us about Arizona Immigration/Check Point issues, none of which should really interest them.

But here they come, with questions - never any answers....

Sooooooo......

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I'm an Arizonan by birth. I live in a state which borders Canada. Arizona is still part of the United States and must follow all parts of the United States constitution. If it was simple as "calling forth the state militia and shooting anyone who crosses the border", why wasn't that done rather than forcing everyone to give up their 4th amendment rights?

TOF wrote:

We already have more people here than necessary so just stay where you are and you will have no problem with Arizona law.

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When any state violates the United States Constitution, the people involved in it, from the Legislators who voted for this crap, to the Governor, to the enforcers on the ground, become criminal thugs and turning against their own citizens in order to weed out illegals effects everyone everywhere in this country. We as a nation put a stop to civil rights abuses in the southeastern United States in the 1950's and 1960's because people from outside of the south saw the abuses going on and said "NO MORE!!!".

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Gray Peterson wrote:

GWbiker wrote:

Arizona gun owners on this subforum face a pesky little problem which surfaces every few months which concerns outsiders who are so frustrated with their inability to correct second Amendment injustices within their own states.

Therefore, they TROLL on this subforum to question us about Arizona Immigration/Check Point issues, none of which should really interest them.

But here they come, with questions - never any answers....

Sooooooo......

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I'm an Arizonan by birth. I live in a state which borders Canada. Arizona is still part of the United States and must follow all parts of the United States constitution. If it was simple as "calling forth the state militia and shooting anyone who crosses the border", why wasn't that done rather than forcing everyone to give up their 4th amendment rights?

TOF wrote:

We already have more people here than necessary so just stay where you are and you will have no problem with Arizona law.

Click to expand...

When any state violates the United States Constitution, the people involved in it, from the Legislators who voted for this crap, to the Governor, to the enforcers on the ground, become criminal thugs and turning against their own citizens in order to weed out illegals effects everyone everywhere in this country. We as a nation put a stop to civil rights abuses in the southeastern United States in the 1950's and 1960's because people from outside of the south saw the abuses going on and said "NO MORE!!!".

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So what are you doing now that our President and his minions have decided to trash our constitution.

Arizona is attempting to protect our state, country and constitution, against enemies both foreign and domestic. Which group do you fall into?

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The Fourth Amendment is still part of the Constitution, if memory serves. We're here, on this board, defending it against its domestic enemies here on this board.

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TOF wrote:

Gray Peterson wrote:

TOF wrote:

We already have more people here than necessary so just stay where you are and you will have no problem with Arizona law.

Click to expand...

When any state violates the United States Constitution, the people involved in it, from the Legislators who voted for this crap, to the Governor, to the enforcers on the ground, become criminal thugs and turning against their own citizens in order to weed out illegals effects everyone everywhere in this country. We as a nation put a stop to civil rights abuses in the southeastern United States in the 1950's and 1960's because people from outside of the south saw the abuses going on and said "NO MORE!!!".

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So what are you doing now that our President and his minions have decided to trash our constitution.

Arizona is attempting to protect our state, country and constitution, against enemies both foreign and domestic. Which group do you fall into?

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Fallacy of false dichotomy.

Called.

Easy to spot...

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So what are you doing now that our President and his minions have decided to trash our constitution.

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I alert people when I see unconstitutional laws being proposed. Problem is getting those horses to drink after being led to the water.

Arizona is attempting to protect our state, country and constitution, against enemies both foreign and domestic. Which group do you fall into?

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I fail to see how this bill protects anyone from anything. It is asking people to trade their liberty for the illusion of safety. Here's an idea, how about punishing these illegal aliens for any state laws they break and then hand them over to the feds for their federal violations? The neat thing about that idea is that no new laws need to be enacted.

All of you in Arizona fought so hard to be able to carry a weapon without needing a piece of paper to do so. You got that into law and you should be congratulated for that. Here's the problem, this new law will require that you carry a piece of paper issued by the government to LEGALLY LEAVE YOUR HOME.

It's kind of difficult to go about your day exercising your right to arms when your rights against search and seizure, travel, assembly, speech, and self incrimination are being violated. You cannot have unlicensed open carry if you are required to have a license to walk down the street.