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Thread: Minor argument turns into incedent exposure arrest

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    A 22 year old man came to our door today trying to sell magazines to my wife. She saw him coming and answered the door holding on to our not-so-friendly- to strangers 85 pound Doberman. The only problem is he did not have any magazines with him, and quickly tried to back out of any selling with a snarling dog three feet away. The magazine selling scam is a common ploy used by burglars if a house they are checking out resident answers the door. Any door to door solicitation without a permit is against my cities municipal code. I live in a gate guarded area, which would have not let him in . He would have had to jump two separate fences, ie trespassing.

    After leaving my house, he went to a neighbor, who is 80 years old and recovering from illness. The young man pounded very hard on his door, and I confronted him in the street (without bringing a weapon along) as he had already gotten off my property. As the elderly man answered the door, I told this young man to leave immediately, as I knew he was trespassing. He started arguing with me, and pulled out his cell phone, telling me that he was going to record everything for his lawyer. I told him that would be great, as the police could use it while he was being charged for 602 PC after being told to leave and not complying. His prior kiss a*s selling demeanor changed ,and now I was a "white m-f-ing ..."well you can guess the rest. The elderly man started to come closer and watch. The young man told me to go mind my own business,and to get out of his face. I told him he was my business, and to start walking off the property. Another neighbor came out to assist, and the kid was now outnumbered. He started yelling racial slurs again and called my wife a fat white bi*ch, and that he knows where I live and he would be back. He would soon regret the last remarks. As he walked off, he undid his pants and exposed himself holding his privates to my wife and neighbor, telling us all we could su*k......again guess the rest....and then ran off.

    After the man left, my fragile 80 year old neighbor tells me he can't believe how brave/stupid I was to stand up to that guy and chase him off. I told him that I kept a close watch on him(and his hands) and didn't think he had any weapons with him. He was a skinny kid with a sweater on, so hiding a gun would have been hard, but not a knife. The old man, to my surprise then pulls out a snubnose .357 from his jacket pocket and said he would have blasted him if he did!!! So much for him needing my protection.

    The sheriff arrived within a few minutes, and the deputy later told us that no fewer than 5 separate citizens pointed him the guy 4 blocks away.The kid told the deputy that that my neighborhood was full "of crazy white peoples with big dogs".

    He had no I.D on him, and told the deputy he had just gotten here from Memphis. My wife and the old man had the honor of going to the location where he was detained and placing him under arrest for PC 314, indecent exposure. This sicko can now be a registered sex offender for the rest of his time on this earth for his little stunt . Glad I did not grab my gun today, but kind of relieved my neighbor did. His threat to return later to our friendly(and well armed) little neighborhood, would surely be the last mistake he would ever make. I hope he enjoys his new home at Orange County Jail.

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    Hello oc4ever,

    Great Job!

    I have some questions.

    1. Did he get charged with a hate crime? He is obviously a racist.
    2. Did he get charged with trespass and what is the penalty for not having a permit to door-to-door sell?
    3. What was your reasoning processto conclude that you should not holster-up a loaded sidearm?
    I don't think I would have saddled up my Highway Patrolman. And I suspect you did not take your gun for similar reasons. The whole scenario may have been turned around by the perp and the Deputy Sheriff against you. The perp would have told the Deputy that you were brandishing a gun at him (lied about it) and that you were being offensive. While you had witnesses, you probably would have been explaining yourself even though you would have been within your rights to load-up.

    Another thought, was your gun ready to be strapped-on post haste? Was time an issue?

    I have an Uncle Mike's rig that can be on my bodyone second after I lay my hands on it. My 65-5 lives in it. I can be holstered-up whether I am wearing a jacket, shorts, or my birthday suit; it attaches over my clothing (or skin).

    What do you think?

    markm

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    oc4ever wrote:
    After the man left, my fragile 80 year old neighbor tells me he can't believe how brave/stupid I was to stand up to that guy and chase him off. The old man, to my surprise then pulls out a snubnose .357 from his jacket pocket and said he would have blasted him if he did!!! So much for him needing my protection.
    Props to grandpa for asserting his self defense rights...
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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Well handled! Hope that skinny piece of **** gets what he deserves!

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    Mark, at the moment I contacted him, the only thing i *knew* he did wrong was solicit without a permit, a municipal code violation. I knew he trespassed, but could not prove it. I am not going to confront someone armed over a muni code violation. He is no threat to me or my family and he was off of my property by then. I am not the police,and that is there job. Over the 18 years I have lived in my neighborhood, we have had a series of 3 sets of burglars. Each thief used the door to door selling ruse until they were caught.

    The sheriff detained/arrested him for the muni viloation and my wife arrested him for 314pc(indecent exposure)and 647a pc(lewd conduct). The DA will also , I assume, charge the 602 violation(tresspass) in the court process, as our community property is well posted with signs. It is kind of ironic that a black person can yell all sorts of vulgar racial slurs and threats that I can not even come close to posting here, yet that is never a hate crime. Racist come in all colors. Frankly, I don't believe saying any words should be a crime in the first place; freedom of speech, is freedom of speech,and I think they are poorly applied laws most of the time.

    And yes, 80 year old men can be a threat with a gun to a crook. My guess if he would have been stupid enough to fight us, the old man would have shot him full of holes. No DA in Orange County is going to charge a frail old man with a heart condition trying to defend himself or a neighbor. No jury would ever convict him of anything, except of doing a good deed. Age gets you more leaway with the laws of self defense.

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    oc4ever wrote:
    The old man, to my surprise then pulls out a snubnose .357 from his jacket pocket and said he would have blasted him if he did!!! So much for him needing my protection.
    Awesome!

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    This is funny and at the same time frightening.

    Its weird how that happens.
    Without the dog does your wife have access and the knowledge of how to use the firearms in the house?

    That's the part that worries me, is making sure the others can handle themselves.
    Seems like gramps has got it covered if he keeps sharp with the rev.

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    oc4ever wrote:
    Mark, at the moment I contacted him, the only thing i *knew* he did wrong was solicit without a permit, a municipal code violation. I knew he trespassed, but could not prove it. I am not going to confront someone armed over a muni code violation. He is no threat to me or my family and he was off of my property by then. I am not the police,and that is there job. Over the 18 years I have lived in my neighborhood, we have had a series of 3 sets of burglars. Each thief used the door to door selling ruse until they were caught.

    The sheriff detained/arrested him for the muni viloation and my wife arrested him for 314pc(indecent exposure)and 647a pc(lewd conduct). The DA will also , I assume, charge the 602 violation(tresspass) in the court process, as our community property is well posted with signs. It is kind of ironic that a black person can yell all sorts of vulgar racial slurs and threats that I can not even come close to posting here, yet that is never a hate crime. Racist come in all colors. Frankly, I don't believe saying any words should be a crime in the first place; freedom of speech, is freedom of speech,and I think they are poorly applied laws most of the time.

    And yes, 80 year old men can be a threat with a gun to a crook. My guess if he would have been stupid enough to fight us, the old man would have shot him full of holes. No DA in Orange County is going to charge a frail old man with a heart condition trying to defend himself or a neighbor. No jury would ever convict him of anything, except of doing a good deed. Age gets you more leaway with the laws of self defense.
    Just out of curiosity. You say the sheriff arrested on one charge and you wife on two others. Is your wife a LEO and why didn't the sheriff arrest him on all three charges. Are there two different jurisdictions involved or did I miss something?

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    PT111 wrote:
    Just out of curiosity. You say the sheriff arrested on one charge and you wife on two others. Is your wife a LEO and why didn't the sheriff arrest him on all three charges. Are there two different jurisdictions involved or did I miss something?
    I'm guessing the wife had to place the subject under citizens arrest because the LEO did not witness the lewd act, so could not arrest for said act.

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    When the deputy searched him, did he find an A.C.O.R.N. membership card?

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    yelohamr wrote:
    When the deputy searched him, did he find an A.C.O.R.N. membership card?
    haha. f-n awesome comment

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    The lewd act is a misdemeanor. A LEO can only arrest for a misdemeanor when it is committed in his presence. No she is not a LEO. This is the first time she has ever arrested anyone,and hopefully the last.

    CA Patriot, glad it would be no big deal if I came to your house and swore slurs at your your wife or daughter and then exposed and held myself, taughting your family members to perform a sexual act upon me. Do you really feel that way? Weenie wagging is not appropriate public behavior anywhere in this country, and the laws are set up to deal with perverts like this. Since you were not there ,or a victim, why don't you let the legal system run its independent course instead of coming off like a bleeding heart. His illegal actions, including jumping two 6 foot fences which are clearly posted against trespassing to gain access to the area were all of his doing, so he is not the victim here. How many "magazine salesman" go to that much trouble, when only a few hundred yards away you could be selling on open public streets? This man had other plans, and by his street demenor, this was not his first go around with the cops.

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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    I would say the OP's actions turned a nothing event into a slightly bigger than nothing event. All the OP had to do was call the police and not confront the salesman. Sounds like the OP got the same attitude that he was giving off. '

    Also, now you are going to brag about getting this guy a sex offender rap ? I am not defending his actions but this is the kind of stuff we DONT need as a registered sex offender. You and everyone else in your state are going to have to pay about an additional $25,000 a year for his terms of offender guidelines all because he flashed supposedly flashed his wee-wee at you. Lame.

    All the OP had to do was call the police and have them deal with it but instead marched over to his neighboors house to save the day and instead made a big deal out of nothing.

    America needs more live and let live attitude and alot less of this petty nonsense.
    This was blown way out of perportion. All that had to be done was call your security. You said you lived in a gated community. I kinda concur with Patriot's above post. They have bumper stickers for "FLASH FRIDAY".<-- I doubt most men wouldconsider this a sex offender rap. AND I've seen people "MOON" other people before, either as a joke or a PROTEST to something they may have thought was incorrect treatment. I would have just let the guy go away IF he was in my neighborhood. If I lived in a gated community, and I thought something wrong, I would have called the security.

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    oc4ever wrote:
    The lewd act is a misdemeanor. A LEO can only arrest for a misdemeanor when it is committed in his presence. No she is not a LEO. This is the first time she has ever arrested anyone,and hopefully the last.

    CA Patriot, glad it would be no big deal if I came to your house and swore slurs at your your wife or daughter and then exposed and held myself, taughting your family members to perform a sexual act upon me. Do you really feel that way? Weenie wagging is not appropriate public behavior anywhere in this country, and the laws are set up to deal with perverts like this. Since you were not there ,or a victim, why don't you let the legal system run its independent course instead of coming off like a bleeding heart. His illegal actions, including jumping two 6 foot fences which are clearly posted against trespassing to gain access to the area were all of his doing, so he is not the victim here. How many "magazine salesman" go to that much trouble, when only a few hundred yards away you could be selling on open public streets? This man had other plans, and by his street demenor, this was not his first go around with the cops.
    oc4ever,

    What got CA Partiot and PinchOgro1 riled-up? Man'o'man! Their posts were uncalled for. As you wrote, they were not there. And as you explained to me, you did not think that there was any physical threat to the old man when the sexually-perverted-racist approached your neighbor's door.

    Yea, call security and let the cops draw an outline around the old man's body (I know, my analogy is a big stretch!). THERE IS NO LAW OR ETHOS THAT RESTRICTS A NEIGHBOR FROM GOING ONTO HIS FRONT YARD AND WATCHING ACTIVITY AT SOMEONE ELSES HOUSE!

    And yes, I have "mooned" people before. And yes, I did not think that the girls who flashed their boobs at me were sexually perverted. In our society, a quick flash is not a perverted act. Choking-the-chicken whileasking strangersto go-down on it is over the top and not acceptable.

    oc4ever, you did the right thing. Many of us claim to want CCWs for self protection, and we advocate OC as an alternative. The situation almost called for you to be armed, but the racist deescalatedthe situation by whipping out the wrongtype of gun. Why do Pincheogro1 and CA Patriot want OC and "Shall Issue" CCW if not to provide an "edge" in situations that detiorate from your situation?

    I don't get it. You must have pissed them off before.

    markm



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    Mark, it is not like I want this man to get some large prison sentence to make me feel good, and it won't happen even if I cared, and I don't. Somehow I have gone all my life without the need to expose myself to strangers and verbally tell them to have unwanted sex with me. This is not a teenage "mooning" , or drunk peeing in the bushes thing, it is way beyond that. If he becomes a registered sex offender, that is all because of his own actions, and that will hopefully prevent him from doing it again. That is what the law and punishment is for, to curb antisocial unacceptable behavior. Besides in this case, the rumor is not true, he was only carrying a short barreled weapon according to my wife.


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    This little innocent 23 year old(today is his birthday)"magazine salesman" has more than 20 prior police contacts, and looks like he may have outstanding warrants in 3 different states. So much for giving him another chance. He was arrested by the OC Sheriff ( I don't want to put in my home city), booking number 2567965. He is still in custody as of this morning. Enough said...

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    Wow, CA Patriot's rush to deamonize the victim and excuse-away the perps actions makes me nervous. CA Patriot, have you ever been, or are you currently working for the DNC, Saldana, SEIU, ACLU, ACORN, or other Sal Alynsky type organization?

    Your methods here are a little alarming.

    Your post thatrequested Oc4ever's city and booking report makes me wonder. Are you going to bus-in some paid protestors? I am guessing the home address is on that report.

    Is Oc4ever a known fabricator of the truth?

    I don't get the irrational exuberance to blame the victim?

    This is just a BLOG, relax.

    oc4ever,

    Have you thought about getting a TRO? I don't know ifthe perp's threats to ya'llwere sufficient to create enough fear of batterythat a judge wouldgrant a TRO, but it is worth thinking about. Also, have you and yours thought about applying for emergency CCWs for your wife, your daughter, yourself and your neighbor?

    The perp has been through the revolving door of justice before and he does not fear LEO.

    The question: Is he just a punk-ass kid, or could he be dangerous?

    markm



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    Hey CaPatriot,

    Thanks for your response.

    Your tone is what hooked me. Declarative statements such as yours tend to get me wound-up. The narrative tone is not quite as acusatorial.

    Thanks for setting me straight and as oc4ever wrote, enough said...

    markm

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    Ca Patriot wrote:
    MarkBofRAdvocate wrote:
    Wow, CA Patriot's rush to deamonize the victim and excuse-away the perps actions makes me nervous. CA Patriot, have you ever been, or are you currently working for the DNC, Saldana, SEIU, ACLU, ACORN, or other Sal Alynsky type organization?

    Your methods here are a little alarming.

    Your post thatrequested Oc4ever's city and booking report makes me wonder. Are you going to bus-in some paid protestors? I am guessing the home address is on that report.

    Is Oc4ever a known fabricator of the truth?

    I don't get the irrational exuberance to blame the victim?

    This is just a BLOG, relax.

    You might want to re-read my original post and then examine who is really rushing to judgement. You are the one rushing to judgement with your juvenile accusations of my affiliations.

    I simply said I thought the actions of the OP were unecessary in regards to his confrontation with the suspect.

    I asked for the arrest report because there are two sides to every story. The open carry movement should know that better than anyone.

    Also, I dont believe the OP is a victim.
    ^^^^^^^ DITTO ^^^^^^

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    The OP was well withing the actions I would EXPECT of my fellow Americans and neighbors!!!! When an INTRUDER is in a gated community conducting himself in a manner that is NOT ALLOWED (i.e. "magazine sales") then I EXPECT that my neighbors will do as I would do and TAKE ACTION.

    OBVIOUSLY OC4ever was CORRECT in his assessment and a RASIST, HATE FILLED, CRIMINAL is, at least temporarilly, off the streets.

    The time to be PC is gone, kaput, overwith. It is time to stand up for what is right, to take back our neighborhoods, communities, country, and way of life.

    GOOD JOB OP
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    We-the-People wrote:
    The OP was well withing the actions I would EXPECT of my fellow Americans and neighbors!!!! When an INTRUDER is in a gated community conducting himself in a manner that is NOT ALLOWED (i.e. "magazine sales") then I EXPECT that my neighbors will do as I would do and TAKE ACTION.

    OBVIOUSLY OC4ever was CORRECT in his assessment and a RASIST, HATE FILLED, CRIMINAL is, at least temporarilly, off the streets.

    The time to be PC is gone, kaput, overwith. It is time to stand up for what is right, to take back our neighborhoods, communities, country, and way of life.

    GOOD JOB OP
    We-the-People:

    I concur.

    markm

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    I concur also.

    The OP did nothing wrong/illegal. He did it differant than some others might, but who cares. He ended up having a criminal aprehended, maybe even saved thatthugs life from a gran torino like older gentleman. (kudos to the older man also).

    Only thing differant is I would have been armed, be prepared for surprises. Studies have proven criminals like very small concealable handguns. A .22, .380 a well placed punch can take a life too.


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    the OP, and his family, and the old guy, ALL were victums of a crime. The OP had every right to act as he did. I would have done the same, however, I would have had been LOC at the time. In this case it would have been LEGAL to LOC.

    here are some CPC laws we all need to know.

    834. An arrest is taking a person into custody, in a case and in
    the manner authorized by law. An arrest may be made by a peace
    officer or by a private person.

    835. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person, or by
    submission to the custody of an officer. The person arrested may be
    subjected to such restraint as is reasonable for his arrest and
    detention.


    837. A private person may arrest another:
    1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
    2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
    in his presence.
    3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
    cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.


    839. Any person making an arrest may orally summon as many persons
    as he deems necessary to aid him therein.


    841. The person making the arrest must inform the person to be
    arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest,
    and the authority to make it, except when the person making the
    arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested
    is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an
    offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after
    its commission, or after an escape.
    The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is
    arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being
    arrested.


    846. Any person making an arrest may take from the person arrested
    all offensive weapons which he may have about his person, and must
    deliver them to the magistrate before whom he is taken.


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    Iopencarry wrote (in part):
    the OP, and his family, and the old guy, ALL were victums of a crime. The OP had every right to act as he did. I would have done the same, however, I would have had been LOC at the time. In this case it would have been LEGAL to LOC.
    Hello Iopencarry,

    I agree with your opinion. I have dealt with dangerous people before, people who have battery and assault convictions against them, and the law is pretty clear on a whole range of issues--but the main theme is "fear of battery or assault."For a TRO, a person requesting the TRO must articulate the reasons why the fear of battery or assualt exists. A person does not have to wait for battery or assault to occur before taking action to prepare for, battery or assault.

    I was not present at oc4ever's incident; however, I feel (I don't know)that sufficient articulable facts would lead a reasonable person to conclude that something was afoot. I believe oc4ever acted prudently. As the incident turned-out, he did not need a weapon; however, considering the rap sheet on the perp, not LOCing may have beenrisky.

    I am giving a layman's explanation of what I have learned--lawyers and civil libertarians can debateexact language and intent of theperp.

    markm

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    Our gated community has a elderly lady as the gate guard, and has no roving patrol. If a problem occurs, she calls the Sheriff. No solicitors are allowed in the community, and signs clearly are posted prohibiting trespassing and solicitation at both entrances and exits. The city solicitation permit process does not allow solicitation in gated communities. The only people going door to door are crooks casing houses and little kids selling lemonade or cookies. . He fell under the first category.

    Of course I asked him how he got inside the gate, knowing full well he jumped two fences. He said he "knows people here", so I asked him their name, (I know every neighbor for blocks around me)and he said he "forgot". I told him he was trespassing and to leave immediately. This was a clear demand, not a request. I ordered him six more times to leave in the next few minutes, telling him he was in violation of 602 PC. He was waiving his cell phone around telling me he was going to give the recording to his lawyer(the Sheriff took the cell phone as evidence). I was hoping he was recording, because it was very clear he was in violation of trespassing laws by failing to leave, and instead yelling M-F'ing this and that. What real professional salesman is going to act like that?

    CA Patriot, you asked me to post the arrest report. Now how am I supposed to get a hold of that? I am not a LEO. They don't just hand them out. You seem so doubting about this chain of events even questioning me about the fact that no black man shows as being arrested that day. Did you go to the OC Sheriff website and check the booking number I gave? As of 945PM tonight he is still in jail. It clearly shows his physical description. I guess all those other 20 police contacts he has has in the other 3 states were just picking on him also. Maybe he will go back to those other states where he had failure to appears in court on law violations and get them all cleared up now that you say there is two sides to every story. All those other police officers must have misunderstood what a upstanding man he really must be, and I bet every one of those violations has his side the story to tell. I want you on my jury if I ever get in any legal trouble, you seem to believe the very best in people. What a very nice trait you have. The ACLU would like to get your phone number for jury service nationwide.

    I acted without using a weapon because the violation did not rise to the level that self defense seemed necessary or warranted. This did escalate because he made it escalate by continuing to trespass and not leave. The old man was the great equalizer if this would have turned sideways. Mr Smith and Wesson are nice friends to have along when trouble occurs. I have no doubt of the next outcome if he shows up again after the police documented threats against all of us. I won't be nice and it won't be pretty.

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