Minor argument turns into incedent exposure arrest

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Hey CaPatriot,

Thanks for your response.

Your tone is what hooked me. Declarative statements such as yours tend to get me wound-up. The narrative tone is not quite as acusatorial.

Thanks for setting me straight and as oc4ever wrote, enough said...

markm

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Ca Patriot wrote:

MarkBofRAdvocate wrote:

Wow, CA Patriot's rush to deamonize the victim and excuse-away the perps actions makes me nervous. CA Patriot, have you ever been, or are you currently working for the DNC, Saldana, SEIU, ACLU, ACORN, or other Sal Alynsky type organization?

Your methods here are a little alarming.

Your post thatrequested Oc4ever's city and booking report makes me wonder. Are you going to bus-in some paid protestors? I am guessing the home address is on that report.

Is Oc4ever a known fabricator of the truth?

I don't get the irrational exuberance to blame the victim?

This is just a BLOG, relax.

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You might want to re-read my original post and then examine who is really rushing to judgement. You are the one rushing to judgement with your juvenile accusations of my affiliations.

I simply said I thought the actions of the OP were unecessary in regards to his confrontation with the suspect.

I asked for the arrest report because there are two sides to every story. The open carry movement should know that better than anyone.

Also, I dont believe the OP is a victim.

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^^^^^^^ DITTO ^^^^^^

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The OP was well withing the actions I would EXPECT of my fellow Americans and neighbors!!!! When an INTRUDER is in a gated community conducting himself in a manner that is NOT ALLOWED (i.e. "magazine sales") then I EXPECT that my neighbors will do as I would do and TAKE ACTION.

OBVIOUSLY OC4ever was CORRECT in his assessment and a RASIST, HATE FILLED, CRIMINAL is, at least temporarilly, off the streets.

The time to be PC is gone, kaput, overwith. It is time to stand up for what is right, to take back our neighborhoods, communities, country, and way of life.

GOOD JOB OP

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We-the-People wrote:

The OP was well withing the actions I would EXPECT of my fellow Americans and neighbors!!!! When an INTRUDER is in a gated community conducting himself in a manner that is NOT ALLOWED (i.e. "magazine sales") then I EXPECT that my neighbors will do as I would do and TAKE ACTION.

OBVIOUSLY OC4ever was CORRECT in his assessment and a RASIST, HATE FILLED, CRIMINAL is, at least temporarilly, off the streets.

The time to be PC is gone, kaput, overwith. It is time to stand up for what is right, to take back our neighborhoods, communities, country, and way of life.

GOOD JOB OP

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We-the-People:

I concur.

markm

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I concur also.

The OP did nothing wrong/illegal. He did it differant than some others might, but who cares. He ended up having a criminal aprehended, maybe even saved thatthugs life from a gran torino like older gentleman. (kudos to the older man also).

Only thing differant is I would have been armed, be prepared for surprises. Studies have proven criminals like very small concealable handguns. A .22, .380 a well placed punch can take a life too.

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the OP, and his family, and the old guy, ALL were victums of a crime. The OP had every right to act as he did. I would have done the same, however, I would have had been LOC at the time. In this case it would have been LEGAL to LOC.

here are some CPC laws we all need to know.

834. An arrest is taking a person into custody, in a case and in
the manner authorized by law. An arrest may be made by a peace
officer or by a private person.

835. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person, or by
submission to the custody of an officer. The person arrested may be
subjected to such restraint as is reasonable for his arrest and
detention.


837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.


839. Any person making an arrest may orally summon as many persons
as he deems necessary to aid him therein.


841. The person making the arrest must inform the person to be
arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest,
and the authority to make it, except when the person making the
arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested
is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an
offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after
its commission, or after an escape.
The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is
arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being
arrested.


846. Any person making an arrest may take from the person arrested
all offensive weapons which he may have about his person, and must
deliver them to the magistrate before whom he is taken.

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The OP said he knew the suspect was trespassing becuase he lives in a gated community. However, anyone in the community could have given permission to the suspect to be there. The OP never said he asked the suspect if he had permission to be there.

Second, the OP stated he knew the suspect was breaking the law because city code says you need a permit to sell magazines. However, the OP never said that he asked the suspect if he had a permit. I guess he just assumed.

All of the assuming of illegalityon the part of the OP sounds alot like what the open carry movement complains about.

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Iopencarry wrote (in part):

the OP, and his family, and the old guy, ALL were victums of a crime. The OP had every right to act as he did. I would have done the same, however, I would have had been LOC at the time. In this case it would have been LEGAL to LOC.

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Hello Iopencarry,

I agree with your opinion. I have dealt with dangerous people before, people who have battery and assault convictions against them, and the law is pretty clear on a whole range of issues--but the main theme is "fear of battery or assault."For a TRO, a person requesting the TRO must articulate the reasons why the fear of battery or assualt exists. A person does not have to wait for battery or assault to occur before taking action to prepare for, battery or assault.

I was not present at oc4ever's incident; however, I feel (I don't know)that sufficient articulable facts would lead a reasonable person to conclude that something was afoot. I believe oc4ever acted prudently. As the incident turned-out, he did not need a weapon; however, considering the rap sheet on the perp, not LOCing may have beenrisky.

I am giving a layman's explanation of what I have learned--lawyers and civil libertarians can debateexact language and intent of theperp.

markm

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Our gated community has a elderly lady as the gate guard, and has no roving patrol. If a problem occurs, she calls the Sheriff. No solicitors are allowed in the community, and signs clearly are posted prohibiting trespassing and solicitation at both entrances and exits. The city solicitation permit process does not allow solicitation in gated communities. The only people going door to door are crooks casing houses and little kids selling lemonade or cookies. . He fell under the first category.

Of course I asked him how he got inside the gate, knowing full well he jumped two fences. He said he "knows people here", so I asked him their name, (I know every neighbor for blocks around me)and he said he "forgot". I told him he was trespassing and to leave immediately. This was a clear demand, not a request. I ordered him six more times to leave in the next few minutes, telling him he was in violation of 602 PC. He was waiving his cell phone around telling me he was going to give the recording to his lawyer(the Sheriff took the cell phone as evidence). I was hoping he was recording, because it was very clear he was in violation of trespassing laws by failing to leave, and instead yelling M-F'ing this and that. What real professional salesman is going to act like that?

CA Patriot, you asked me to post the arrest report. Now how am I supposed to get a hold of that? I am not a LEO. They don't just hand them out. You seem so doubting about this chain of events even questioning me about the fact that no black man shows as being arrested that day. Did you go to the OC Sheriff website and check the booking number I gave? As of 945PM tonight he is still in jail. It clearly shows his physical description. I guess all those other 20 police contacts he has has in the other 3 states were just picking on him also. Maybe he will go back to those other states where he had failure to appears in court on law violations and get them all cleared up now that you say there is two sides to every story. All those other police officers must have misunderstood what a upstanding man he really must be, and I bet every one of those violations has his side the story to tell. I want you on my jury if I ever get in any legal trouble, you seem to believe the very best in people. What a very nice trait you have. The ACLU would like to get your phone number for jury service nationwide.

I acted without using a weapon because the violation did not rise to the level that self defense seemed necessary or warranted. This did escalate because he made it escalate by continuing to trespass and not leave. The old man was the great equalizer if this would have turned sideways. Mr Smith and Wesson are nice friends to have along when trouble occurs. I have no doubt of the next outcome if he shows up again after the police documented threats against all of us. I won't be nice and it won't be pretty.

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oc4ever wrote:

CA Patriot, you asked me to post the arrest report. Now how am I suppposed to get ahold of that? I am not a LEO. They don't just hand them out.

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OC,I believe that you said that your wife performed a citizen's arrest, which in my experience requires first signing several documents provided by a deputy, and then the deputy makes the physical arrest. As the victim, she is absolutely entitled to PRA (Gov. Code 6254 f) release of information concerning the arrest.She has to go to 320 N. Flower (Flower St.and Santa Ana Blvd)to fill out a request form (look for the two triangular shaped buildings). Cost is15 cents per page.

Do this for your own benefit, if nothing else.

You dun good !

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We-the-People wrote:

The OP was well withing the actions I would EXPECT of my fellow Americans and neighbors!!!! When an INTRUDER is in a gated community conducting himself in a manner that is NOT ALLOWED (i.e. "magazine sales") then I EXPECT that my neighbors will do as I would do and TAKE ACTION.

OBVIOUSLY OC4ever was CORRECT in his assessment and a RASIST, HATE FILLED, CRIMINAL is, at least temporarilly, off the streets.

The time to be PC is gone, kaput, overwith. It is time to stand up for what is right, to take back our neighborhoods, communities, country, and way of life.

GOOD JOB OP

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+1. oc4ever, good job on being alert and my hat's off to you for watching out for your elderly neighbor. That's the way it should be.

On the first command to leave any responsible, professional, polite, courteous salesperson would have obeyed immediately. And they would have used their cell phone to call their local supervisor to pick them up immediately. Not burst out in racial slurs, vulgarity, and lewd acts. Clearly you sensed something wasn't right with this guy and you were right. To hell with the PC world and their lay down and take it crap.

ETA: I like your elderly neighbor, tell him there's property for sale around me if he's interested in moving!

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Aren't dobermans the best stranger deteran?

I know my two dobermans do one hell of a job keeping people off our sidewalk much less our property hahaha

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Dobermans work very well. Unfortunately, they bite even if you don't have your finger on the trigger, unlike a firearm.

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Ca Patriot wrote:

Also, now you are going to brag about getting this guy a sex offender rap ?  I am not defending his actions but this is the kind of stuff we DONT need as a registered sex offender.  You and everyone else in your state are going to have to pay about an additional $25,000 a year for his terms of offender guidelines all because he flashed supposedly flashed his wee-wee at you.  Lame.

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I'm inclined to agree with this analysis.

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marshaul wrote:

Ca Patriot wrote:

Also, now you are going to brag about getting this guy a sex offender rap ? I am not defending his actions but this is the kind of stuff we DONT need as a registered sex offender. You and everyone else in your state are going to have to pay about an additional $25,000 a year for his terms of offender guidelines all because he flashed supposedly flashed his wee-wee at you. Lame.

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I'm inclined to agree with this analysis.

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Until you have this happen to you and your family (hope it never does) you just won't understand. Dirt bags like this wouldn't think twice about raping your wife, daughter, sister or even you. I would bet that this kid has other sex related offenses.

This is my first time reading the California forum. I feel sorry for you guys and your screwed up gun / self defense laws. I live in Ohio and carry all the time. OC at home (loaded of course) and CC when out and I would never have gone out to confront this kid without my gun. Just because it looked like he didn't have a gun doesn't mean he didn't. My Glock 23 goes nicely with a t-shirt and shorts.

Using cost to justify not charging someone with a crime is unthinkable. Why bother arresting anyone with that thinking. Do you know what a murder trial cost? How about life in prison? I'm all for sticking him with every charge you can. If the law considers what he did bad enough to be considered a sex offender then he really screwed up and will pay the price. Sexually preoccupied people like this almost always escalate.

I think you did a fine job and its good to know your neighbor has your back. Give your dog an extra biscuit. Good luck.

John

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Hello All,

I think the dichotomy that we are witnessing on this thread is linked to political ideology. I am a conservative republican and lean towards liberal libertarianism. Most of the posters who have opined thatoc4ever's actions were justified are problably conservative democrat to conservative republican in their ideology. I am guessing that in reality, forget how somebody labels themselves, that our friends who think thatoc4ever's actions were wrong, are far-right libertarians to anarchists in their true ideological make-up.

Ideologically, I am not an anarchist or "right-wing" libertarian because these ideologies meetat the bottom on political diagrams with totalitarian ideologies of the far-left (I am talking about the circle and triangle ideological diagrams). The strong-man rules in an anarchist society just as the strong-man rules in a totalitarian regime. Webecome subject to the whims of another, while creator granted rights are scoffed at. The rule of law is non-existant in far left and far right ideologies.

AsI wrote earlier, I have liberallibertarian leanings; but I am weary of right-wing libertarians because they are almost indistinguishable fromanarchists, and anarchy leads to totalitarianism.

Am I pissing into the wind, or am I onto something?

markm

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Why can't people just have an opinion without being lumped into a category? My beleifs span both the left and the right and sometimes to the extreme. I guess that leaves me in the corn-fussed category

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What's the phrase? Good fences make good neighbors.

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jgregel wrote:

marshaul wrote:

Ca Patriot wrote:

Also, now you are going to brag about getting this guy a sex offender rap ?  I am not defending his actions but this is the kind of stuff we DONT need as a registered sex offender.  You and everyone else in your state are going to have to pay about an additional $25,000 a year for his terms of offender guidelines all because he flashed supposedly flashed his wee-wee at you.  Lame.

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I'm inclined to agree with this analysis.

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Until you have this happen to you and your family (hope it never does) you just won't understand.  Dirt bags like this wouldn't think twice about raping your wife, daughter, sister or even you.  I would bet that this kid has other sex related offenses.

This is my first time reading the California forum.  I feel sorry for you guys and your screwed up gun / self defense laws.  I live in Ohio and carry all the time.  OC at home (loaded of course) and CC when out and I would never have gone out to confront this kid without my gun.  Just because it looked like he didn't have a gun doesn't mean he didn't.  My Glock 23 goes nicely with a t-shirt and shorts.

Using cost to justify not charging someone with a crime is unthinkable.  Why bother arresting anyone with that thinking.  Do you know what a murder trial cost?  How about life in prison?  I'm all for sticking him with every charge you can.  If the law considers what he did bad enough to be considered a sex offender then he really screwed up and will pay the price.  Sexually preoccupied people like this almost always escalate.

I think you did a fine job and its good to know your neighbor has your back.  Give your dog an extra biscuit.  Good luck.

John

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So, because this guy exposed his privates after an argument, he's on the fast track to raping and murdering my daughter?

The financial cost is the least of my worries. I worry that sex offender status is used far too frequently, leading to lifelong penalties over trivial offenses.

I'm sorry, what this guy did doesn't deserve anything more than a couple days in jail.

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MarkBofRAdvocate wrote:

Hello All,

I think the dichotomy that we are witnessing on this thread is linked to political ideology.  I am a conservative republican and lean towards liberal libertarianism.  Most of the posters who have opined that oc4ever's actions were justified are problably conservative democrat to conservative republican in their ideology.  I am guessing that in reality, forget how somebody labels themselves, that our friends who think that oc4ever's actions were wrong, are far-right libertarians to anarchists in their true ideological make-up.

Ideologically, I am not an anarchist or "right-wing" libertarian because these ideologies meet at the bottom on political diagrams with totalitarian ideologies of the far-left (I am talking about the circle and triangle ideological diagrams).  The strong-man rules in an anarchist society just as the strong-man rules in a totalitarian regime.  We become subject to the whims of another, while creator granted rights are scoffed at.  The rule of law is non-existant in far left and far right ideologies.

As I wrote earlier, I have liberal libertarian leanings; but I am weary of right-wing libertarians because they are almost indistinguishable from anarchists, and anarchy leads to totalitarianism.

Am I pissing into the wind, or am I onto something?

markm

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I'm not sure I see any relevance in your assignation of "liberal" and "right-wing" libertarianism.

Plus, at least in my own case my point is less that his actions were "wrong" (I understand why he did what he did), and it's more that I'm afraid the result may be making a mountain of a mole hill.

I just don't consider the showing of private parts to be a sex crime. At worst, it's a crime little more serious than loitering, or being drunk in public, or any other number of nuisances.

The overwhelming majority of libertarians who oppose the over-use of "sex crime" laws are of the "liberal" (i.e. non-right-wing) sort. I know, because I'm one of them and so is the libertarianism I'm interested in.