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Thread: carrying at a place that serves alcohol

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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    Ok so in accordance with 941.237(d) or (g) the owner or manager may allow for the OC of a firearm in a facility with a class B liquor license. I understand that part g states that it can be authorized for a specific event or time frame. Part D is that an employee or "agent" may carry with authorization from the owner/manager.

    Say for example Thundarbay who has allowed us to carry for differnet meeting and what not. Can they (if they were to choose to) grant a open allowence for all patrons to be able to carry in accordance with the laws for an open time period? If not what type of time frame may they grant permision? Maybe a year authorization? Or even a5 year authorization?

    Curious if there is some sort of way to work around this regulation and still be in compliance with the laws without having to get express permission every time I want to frequent a place that serves alcohol and food.

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    Sorry I can't answer this, but I have been asking myself the same question for a while now. I would like to see what the experts have tosay.

    I wonder if a sign at the door stating that "management of this establishment welcomes legally carried firearms at all times" would work. I would certainly post one of these if I were a resteranteur.



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    There was discussion about this very topic at the WCI annual meeting. I don't think I would characterize a blanket permission as "a way to work around" the law. It may well be working within the law to give blanket permission. Hopefully some DA or legislator will request a formal AG opinion.
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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    You are correct Shotgun. My choice of words might be misunderstood. I was merely asking about a way to COMPLY with the current laws while still being able to protect ones self in otherwise controlled areas.

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    It is my opinion that, unless one is an employee of the licensee or contracted to the licensee, one must obtain written permission from the licensee for each specific event of limited duration.

    I find the words and the intent quite clear.

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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    It is my opinion that, unless one is an employee of the licensee or contracted to the licensee, one must obtain written permission from the licensee for each specific event of limited duration.

    I find the words and the intent quite clear.
    I find no definition of limited duration. So how clear is it truly? And where does it say written anywhere in the statute? While written is probably your best defense I am sure a recorded verbal permission will certainly be just as well.

    As for intent we all know the true intent is to limit our rights. But the question is how can we, working with the wording of 941.237, find a lawfull way to have this statute be less of a pain in the arse. Also I don't see anything to show if this permission can be a broad permission to no specific individual or group that will allow it to apply to any and all law abiding citizens. Or does this permission need to be more focused on a certain group and/or individual.

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    Cobra469 wrote:
    I am sure a recorded verbal permission will certainly be just as well.
    Based on what?

    "Yeah, uhh, this is Jeff Snarkey and I own the Open Carry Bar in Ellison Bay, Wisconsin and my friend and legal adviser Cobra469 can carry in my bar that I signed the license for. Oh, yeah, he can carry his gun in my bar for the April Greasy HOG ride."

    "Mr. Prosecutor, will you stipulate..."

    Oh yeah, I'll give up my case just to be nice.

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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    Oh I'm sorry I must have missed the part were it says "must have written consent" but since master attorney Doug interprets it so than that must be the wording.

    (d) The licensee, owner, or manager of the premises, or any employee or agent authorized to possess a handgun by the licensee, owner, or manager of the premises.

    941.237(3)(g)
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.

    Does it say written authorization? An authorization on record that has not been retracted is still authorization. While having it in the form of writting may be the best defense to keep from being prosecuted, if they want to charge you they still will regardless of what type of authorization you have. But still nowhere does it say written so your interpretation that it must be written is an opinion based on the best way to receive that authorization. But regardless written authorization is not a requirement. What is a requirement is "authorization" in some form or manner that has not been declared in the ordinance cited. All that said and done still does not answer the question that was being asked originally. How long could this limited duration last for and can the authorization be broad enough to entail all law abiding citizens? Would it be possible to grant permission for a month at a time and just keep granting permission every month thereafter? While this may be a bit of work to do this could be something. Just don't know of any cases or legal interpretations that have covered this section before. All the references I am finding are about tavern owners carrying concealed in their bar. Nothing about a customer.



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    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    Well I know Nik had authorization for the 2 lunches in Pewaukee.

    Nik, did you get written authorization or ?

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    We had verbal authorization for the March 14 OC lunch in La Crosse.

    We had written authorization for the Monro County Republican Party thing.

    I agree there is not written requirement, but written is a better CYA.

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    hunter9mm wrote:
    Well I know Nik had authorization for the 2 lunches in Pewaukee.
    Was it challenged in law? Did someone bring it to judicial notice?

    There's a reason that I-ANAL and a coward, if it was easy then everyone would do it.

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    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    hunter9mm wrote:
    Well I know Nik had authorization for the 2 lunches in Pewaukee.
    Was it challenged in law? Did someone bring it to judicial notice?

    There's a reason that I-ANAL and a coward, if it was easy then everyone would do it.
    Doug, Not knowing exactly what you're asking here.

    Was it challenged in law?

    The whole law, as it pertains to getting permission to OC in an establishment with a Class B, or type of authorization obtained for the lunch in Pewaukee, or?


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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Challenged in law?

    There is nothing to challenge. The law is clear and many organizations (Ducks Unlimited, White Tails Unlimited, NRA - ILA, numerous Rod & Gun Clubs, NWTF, etc) have been getting permission for their banquette dinners at establishments where alcohol is served for years.



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    Oh, well that's OK.

    Over and out.

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    hunter9mm wrote:
    Well I know Nik had authorization for the 2 lunches in Pewaukee.

    Nik, did you get written authorization or ?
    Verbal permission for both, but I also knew the person who gave permission would be present.

    Its not a bad idea to get written permission. Or to have voice recording captured of getting permission.

    I can envision a scenario where a police officer could come in an establishment and scare the owner/manager into saying they didn't give permission (not wanting to get in trouble themselves) and its always nice to have documentation of some form.

    Lastly, many restaurant owners/managers likely have little to NO knowledge of Wisconsin Gun laws, so it may be a good idea to be able to show them a copy of the statute so that they can be confident they are within the law to allow you to carry.

    Say for example Thundarbay who has allowed us to carry for differnet meeting and what not. Can they (if they were to choose to) grant a open allowence for all patrons to be able to carry in accordance with the laws for an open time period? If not what type of time frame may they grant permision? Maybe a year authorization? Or even a 5 year authorization?

    Curious if there is some sort of way to work around this regulation and still be in compliance with the laws without having to get express permission every time I want to frequent a place that serves alcohol and food.
    I have it on good legal authority, the specifics of which I don't think I'm at liberty to quote here, (so in other words, I know this to be true, but you have no reason to believe me, thus, this is not legal advice) that a posted sign at an entrance to an establishment stating the following would be a legal method of granting permission:

    ---I "Joe Restaurateur" grant to law-abiding citizens who are legally allowed to posses and carry a firearm under Wisconsin Law, permission to openly-carry a sidearm in this establishment for the limited duration of their dining experience.

    Again, not legal advice. Do not rely on what I just wrote, conduct your own legal research, however if I owned a restaurant that served alcohol, I'd be confident in putting that sign up and it being legal permission to patrons who wanted to carry.
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    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply Nik.

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    Regular Member Fireball357's Avatar
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    Cobra469 wrote:
    Ok so in accordance with 941.237(d) or (g) the owner or manager may allow for the OC of a firearm in a facility with a class B liquor license. I understand that part g states that it can be authorized for a specific event or time frame. Part D is that an employee or "agent" may carry with authorization from the owner/manager.

    Say for example Thundarbay who has allowed us to carry for differnet meeting and what not. Can they (if they were to choose to) grant a open allowence for all patrons to be able to carry in accordance with the laws for an open time period? If not what type of time frame may they grant permision? Maybe a year authorization? Or even a5 year authorization?

    Curious if there is some sort of way to work around this regulation and still be in compliance with the laws without having to get express permission every time I want to frequent a place that serves alcohol and food.

    I have had many lengthy discussions with a leading firearms attorney about this specific topic.

    The catch that implies the written permission is 941.237(4) which states:

    The state does not have to negate any exception under sub. (3). Any party that claims that an exception under sub. (3) is applicable has the burden of proving the exception by a preponderance of the evidence.

    He said that a signed permission slip is a preponderance of evidence that you had permission; and would be fully defensible in court.

    There is a draft out for review; of a permission slip that lists the complete state statute on 1 side and has the following statement on the other:

    I__________________, Licensee/Owner/Manager of ________________________ hereby authorize ____________________________ to possess a handgun pursuant to WI Statute 941.237(2)(3)(g) on these premises for the following date(s):__________

    Then it is signed and dated.

    This slip should be available in the near future.

    I have personally spoken to J.B. Van Hollen about this permission slip and he concurs that it is a preponderance of evidence that you had permission; and would be fully defensible in court.

    I also asked him if the Specific Event could be a “Wednesday night Bowling League”; and the Limited Duration could be from September to April, and his answer was “ it would be hard to argue that it wasn’t”

    As for when I asked J.B. if a blanket sign in a store window, stating

    “Pursuant to Wisc. State Statute 941.237(3)(g)

    I __________________ grant all law abiding citizens

    Permission to carry handguns in this establishment for

    Personal protection for the event of dining

    for the duration of their stay.”

    would also cover the preponderance of evidence he said he would have to give that a lot more thought and he would get back to me.







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    This slip should be available in the near future.
    Fireball357, thank's for posting up! I didn't want to post hear-say so I'm glad you stopped in to post your first hand knowledge rather than me relay your information.

    We've uploaded the "permission slip" you've developed here:

    download here! (for all freedom-minded open-carriers!!)

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/ca...onsliprev5.pdf

    Carry on!
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    Be careful. §941.237(3)(g) does not allow just any "Licensee/Owner/Manager" to authorize possession or use, but only the owner or manager who particularly is issued the license or permit."
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.
    Further the pronoun is "who", a personal pronoun, and not 'that' that might refer to the premises.

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    Fireball357 wrote:
    He said that ... is a preponderance of evidence that you had permission; and would be fully defensible in court.
    I-ANAL and a coward and, -- oh yeah, an assh0le.

    He may have said those words but your trier of fact will not admit that oral statement as evidence.

    "Preponderance of evidence" is not an intrinsic attribute of an item of evidence, but a process judgment, a comparison with all the other controverting evidence. A synonym for "preponderance of evidence" is balance of probabilities.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    I've said/wrote it before, and I'll write it again:

    Ducks Unlimited, NWTF, Wisconsin Bow Hunters, White Tails Unlimited, Friends of the NRA:

    All these orgs have banquet dinners. All these orgs have firearms on the premises (st the place) where the event occurs.

    Many of these events take place at banquet/bar facilities.

    The fact presented here, along with the permission slip, would be quite a preponderance to overcome.

    If we cannot carry in these places with permission, then the banquet dinners are finished. That is why they (the sports men) lobbied for this particular exception.

    We have done this several times without issue furthering the cause and tipping the scales in our advantage.

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