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Thread: Stand Your Ground (as long as you're not committing a crime)

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I'm reading a thread on another forum about the motorcycle incident we're discussing here:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/42455.html

    Someone said that if there was not a marked car behind the guy (no knowledge that he was LE) and if the guy had shot the officer (assuming he had a carry permit and got a shot off) that the guy would go to federal prison for shooting an officer. I disagreed with his point in saying:

    "That is not necessarily true.

    If this had happened to me (in Michigan) and I'd shot the officer before he identified himself, it would be a justified shooting. Aggressive man with unknown identity and gun drawn = a justified shoot. Especially since this was caught on tape, there's no way that the story could be skewed in court. It doesn't matter if he was an officer or not; to you he was a lethal threat, which you can legally defend yourself against in my state.

    And what's even better is that Michigan has the Castle Doctrine and the Stand Your Ground laws, which means that if you are somewhere you can legally be, you have no obligation to flee and can defend yourself where you stand."

    The part I left out was the "if you're not committing a crime" part. How does speeding and/or reckless driving factor into the situation? Does it count as a crime, which would make the shooting not justifiable? It seems stupid that it wouldn't, but I have to ask.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Well yes he was committing a crime, reckless driving, speeding..etc.
    The law does not state felony, misdemeanor, civil infraction...they are crimes.
    So yes, had he shot the officer; he would have done so while committing a crime.

    JMO

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    For the sake of discussion, what you're saying is that someone who was driving 26 in a 25 and had to defend themselves would not constitute a clean shoot?

    Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Splitting hairs with technicalities....yes.
    A crime is a crime, that's why car salesmen quit and became lawyers.

    Each event has it's own circumstances and can be argued either way.

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    A civil infraction of speeding is not a crime - however, reckless driving is.

    If you're not in the act of a crime - well, that's to be decided by a court case.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    A civil infraction of speeding is not a crime....????

    There are speed limit laws...if you are speeding you are breaking the law.
    There is no definition or classification of law in the cite.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you're not in the act of a crime - well, that's to be decided by a court case.
    thats what i was thinking. iffy, but still unneeded to draw a weapon unless deadly force was needed.

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    Well yes he was committing a crime, reckless driving, speeding..etc.
    The law does not state felony, misdemeanor, civil infraction...they are crimes.
    So yes, had he shot the officer; he would have done so while committing a crime.

    JMO
    I wouldn't consider a civil infraction (taffic violations) to be a crime.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
    NOUN
    1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.

    2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.

    3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.

    4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources.

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    http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/reso...s/mag_sec6.pdf

    The decriminalization of minor traffic offenses in 1979 substantially changed the court procedures for handling these cases. Because the defendant in a civil infraction case does not face the possibility of going to jail, he or she is not entitled to all the procedural safeguards associated with a criminal trial.

    Accordingly, civil infraction hearings in traffic cases differ from criminal trials in the following respects.

    $ Jury trial is not allowed. (MCL 257.746[1], MCL 257.747[4])

    $
    A defendant may be found responsible for a traffic civil infraction by only a preponderance of the evidence, rather than by the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (MCL 257.746[4], MCL 257.747[5])

    $
    Because civil infractions are not "crimes," findings of responsibility are not reported on the defendant's criminal record. However, most civil infractions must still appear on the defendant's driving record maintained by the Michigan Secretary of State. (MCL 257.6a, MCL 257.732)

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Well shut my mouth and slap my keyboard!!!

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    So in laymen's terms, if you can't go to jail for it, it's not a crime in the sense of self defense?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    A civil infraction of speeding is not a crime....????

    There are speed limit laws...if you are speeding you are breaking the law.
    There is no definition or classification of law in the cite.
    Civil infractions are not criminal, by definition.

    Crimes include misdemeanors and felonies.

    EDIT: I guess I should read the rest of the thread before replying.

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    Just a thought...

    The motorcylist was not speeding when the cop pulled a gun on him, he had exited the freeway and was waiting in a line of traffic.

    So... is waiting in a line of traffic a crime?
    "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."
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    Mosnar87 wrote:
    Just a thought...

    The motorcylist was not speeding when the cop pulled a gun on him, he had exited the freeway and was waiting in a line of traffic.

    So... is waiting in a line of traffic a crime?
    The vids available to the Internet leave out a lot of details to make an accurate statement on this incident. The biggest problems he faces is the privacy violations of Maryland law. Apparently Maryland is a two-party state and the biker eff'd up by recording audio & visual of the cop and placing it on the Internet.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Mosnar87 wrote:
    Just a thought...
    The motorcylist was not speeding when the cop pulled a gun on him, he had exited the freeway and was waiting in a line of traffic.

    So... is waiting in a line of traffic a crime?
    The vids available to the Internet leave out a lot of details to make an accurate statement on this incident. The biggest problems he faces is the privacy violations of Maryland law. Apparently Maryland is a two-party state and the biker eff'd up by recording audio & visual of the cop and placing it on the Internet.
    Last I read this had all been thrown out.

    ETA: http://carlosmiller.com/2010/04/16/m...-cop-with-gun/

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    Be careful with the civil vs. criminal definitions for traffic violations as in SC the last time I heard and was on a jury for traffic violations it was a criminal court and required the same beyond a reasonable doubt as with any other crime. I am not sure that any traffic violation carries a possible jail term except DUI and possibly pasing a stopped school bus but they are handled in the same court, same judge, same jury pool and same jury instrucitons as other minor criminal cases.

    As for whether you are breaking a law the SC code says:
    A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in another place where he has a right to be
    I would have to interpret that as including speeding.



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    PT111 wrote:
    Be careful with the civil vs. criminal definitions for traffic violations as in SC the last time I heard and was on a jury for traffic violations it was a criminal court and required the same beyond a reasonable doubt as with any other crime. I am not sure that any traffic violation carries a possible jail term except DUI and possibly pasing a stopped school bus but they are handled in the same court, same judge, same jury pool and same jury instrucitons as other minor criminal cases.
    Thanks for the clarification.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Be careful with the civil vs. criminal definitions for traffic violations as in SC the last time I heard and was on a jury for traffic violations it was a criminal court and required the same beyond a reasonable doubt as with any other crime.Â* I am not sure that any traffic violation carries a possible jail term except DUI and possibly pasing a stopped school bus but they are handled in the same court, same judge, same jury pool and same jury instrucitons as other minor criminal cases.

    As for whether you are breaking a law the SC code says:
    A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in another place where he has a right to be
    I would have to interpret that as including speeding.

    Â*
    So you're doing 72 mph in a 70 on your Harley, you pull up to stop, and some guy cuts you off, almost hitting you / your bike. He gets out of his vehicle, and approaches you quickly. He appears to be enraged. He begins to pull his gun...

    Oh wait, but you were speeding. :P

    -Richard-

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    he would have been totaly lawful to have pulled and shot,,, any time before the cop said "im a cop!"

    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/reso...s/mag_sec6.pdf

    The decriminalization of minor traffic offenses in 1979 substantially changed the court procedures for handling these cases. Because the defendant in a civil infraction case does not face the possibility of going to jail, he or she is not entitled to all the procedural safeguards associated with a criminal trial.

    Accordingly, civil infraction hearings in traffic cases differ from criminal trials in the following respects.

    $ Jury trial is not allowed. (MCL 257.746[1], MCL 257.747[4])

    $ A defendant may be found responsible for a traffic civil infraction by only a preponderance of the evidence, rather than by the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (MCL 257.746[4], MCL 257.747[5])

    $ Because civil infractions are not "crimes," findings of responsibility are not reported on the defendant's criminal record. However, most civil infractions must still appear on the defendant's driving record maintained by the Michigan Secretary of State. (MCL 257.6a, MCL 257.732)
    Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.

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    I'm glad to see this as it agrees with my understanding that civil traffic infractions are actually contract violations.

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    springerdave wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/reso...s/mag_sec6.pdf

    The decriminalization of minor traffic offenses in 1979 substantially changed the court procedures for handling these cases. Because the defendant in a civil infraction case does not face the possibility of going to jail, he or she is not entitled to all the procedural safeguards associated with a criminal trial.

    Accordingly, civil infraction hearings in traffic cases differ from criminal trials in the following respects.

    $ Jury trial is not allowed. (MCL 257.746[1], MCL 257.747[4])

    $ A defendant may be found responsible for a traffic civil infraction by only a preponderance of the evidence, rather than by the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (MCL 257.746[4], MCL 257.747[5])

    $ Because civil infractions are not "crimes," findings of responsibility are not reported on the defendant's criminal record. However, most civil infractions must still appear on the defendant's driving record maintained by the Michigan Secretary of State. (MCL 257.6a, MCL 257.732)
    Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.
    If it is a civil infraction there will be no bench warrant.

    A default judgment will be entered and fines assessed.

    If the fines aren't paid by the due date, a notice will sent to the secretary of state and the driver's license suspended.

    Upon any subsequent encounter, the driver could be issued a citation for driving while suspended.

    Unless it is an extraditable offense, even to another jurisdiction in Michigan, the driver will not be arrested.

    Insofar as the stand your ground law is concerned, in Michigan, civil infractions are not crimes and I would not hesitate stopping the threat even if i had been speeding, running red lights and stop signs, pulling wheelies, or any other moving violation considered to be a civil infraction in the state of Michigan.

    As for washington state, I don't know the intricacies of their traffic laws, nor do I care. That is for the sheeple of washington to discuss.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    springerdave wrote:
    Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.
    Yes but the crime you would be arrested for at that point isn't the initial civil traffic violation it's the act of refusing to meet your punishment obligations.

    Bronson

    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Bronson wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.
    Yes but the crime you would be arrested for at that point isn't the initial civil traffic violation it's the act of refusing to meet your punishment obligations.

    Bronson
    And what crime would that be?

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