Stand Your Ground (as long as you're not committing a crime)

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I'm reading a thread on another forum about the motorcycle incident we're discussing here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/42455.html

Someone said that if there was not a marked car behind the guy (no knowledge that he was LE) and if the guy had shot the officer (assuming he had a carry permit and got a shot off) that the guy would go to federal prison for shooting an officer. I disagreed with his point in saying:

"That is not necessarily true.

If this had happened to me (in Michigan) and I'd shot the officer before he identified himself, it would be a justified shooting. Aggressive man with unknown identity and gun drawn = a justified shoot. Especially since this was caught on tape, there's no way that the story could be skewed in court. It doesn't matter if he was an officer or not; to you he was a lethal threat, which you can legally defend yourself against in my state.

And what's even better is that Michigan has the Castle Doctrine and the Stand Your Ground laws, which means that if you are somewhere you can legally be, you have no obligation to flee and can defend yourself where you stand."

The part I left out was the "if you're not committing a crime" part. How does speeding and/or reckless driving factor into the situation? Does it count as a crime, which would make the shooting not justifiable? It seems stupid that it wouldn't, but I have to ask.

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Well yes he was committing a crime, reckless driving, speeding..etc.
The law does not state felony, misdemeanor, civil infraction...they are crimes.
So yes, had he shot the officer; he would have done so while committing a crime.

JMO

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For the sake of discussion, what you're saying is that someone who was driving 26 in a 25 and had to defend themselves would not constitute a clean shoot?

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

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Splitting hairs with technicalities....yes.
A crime is a crime, that's why car salesmen quit and became lawyers.

Each event has it's own circumstances and can be argued either way.

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A civil infraction of speeding is not a crime - however, reckless driving is.

If you're not in the act of a crime - well, that's to be decided by a court case.

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A civil infraction of speeding is not a crime....????

There are speed limit laws...if you are speeding you are breaking the law.
There is no definition or classification of law in the cite.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

If you're not in the act of a crime - well, that's to be decided by a court case.

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thats what i was thinking. iffy, but still unneeded to draw a weapon unless deadly force was needed.

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WARCHILD wrote:

Well yes he was committing a crime, reckless driving, speeding..etc.
The law does not state felony, misdemeanor, civil infraction...they are crimes.
So yes, had he shot the officer; he would have done so while committing a crime.

JMO

Click to expand...

I wouldn't consider a civil infraction (taffic violations) to be a crime.

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American Heritage[sup]®[/sup] Dictionary of the English Language
NOUN
1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.

2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.

3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.

4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources.

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http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/resources/publications/manuals/magis/mag_sec6.pdf

[align=left]The decriminalization of minor traffic offenses in 1979 substantially changed the court procedures for handling these cases. Because the defendant in a civil infraction case does not face the possibility of going to jail, he or she is not entitled to all the procedural safeguards associated with a criminal trial.[/align]
[align=left]Accordingly, civil infraction hearings in traffic cases differ from criminal trials in the following respects. [/align]
[align=left]$ Jury trial is not allowed. (MCL 257.746[1], MCL 257.747[4])[/align]
[align=left]$ A defendant may be found responsible for a traffic civil infraction by only a preponderance of the evidence, rather than by the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (MCL 257.746[4], MCL 257.747[5])[/align]
[align=left]$ Because civil infractions are not "crimes," findings of responsibility are not reported on the defendant's criminal record. However, most civil infractions must still appear on the defendant's driving record maintained by the Michigan Secretary of State. (MCL 257.6a, MCL 257.732)[/align]

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Well shut my mouth and slap my keyboard!!! :banghead::banghead:

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So in laymen's terms, if you can't go to jail for it, it's not a crime in the sense of self defense?

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WARCHILD wrote:

A civil infraction of speeding is not a crime....????

There are speed limit laws...if you are speeding you are breaking the law.
There is no definition or classification of law in the cite.

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Civil infractions are not criminal, by definition.

Crimes include misdemeanors and felonies.

EDIT: I guess I should read the rest of the thread before replying.

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Just a thought...

The motorcylist was not speeding when the cop pulled a gun on him, he had exited the freeway and was waiting in a line of traffic.

So... is waiting in a line of traffic a crime?

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Mosnar87 wrote:

Just a thought...

The motorcylist was not speeding when the cop pulled a gun on him, he had exited the freeway and was waiting in a line of traffic.

So... is waiting in a line of traffic a crime?

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The vids available to the Internet leave out a lot of details to make an accurate statement on this incident. The biggest problems he faces is the privacy violations of Maryland law. Apparently Maryland is a two-party state and the biker eff'd up by recording audio & visual of the cop and placing it on the Internet.

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

Mosnar87 wrote:

Just a thought...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The motorcylist was not speeding when the cop pulled a gun on him, he had exited the freeway and was waiting in a line of traffic.

So... is waiting in a line of traffic a crime?

Click to expand...

The vids available to the Internet leave out a lot of details to make an accurate statement on this incident. The biggest problems he faces is the privacy violations of Maryland law. Apparently Maryland is a two-party state and the biker eff'd up by recording audio & visual of the cop and placing it on the Internet.

Click to expand...

Last I read this had all been thrown out.

ETA: http://carlosmiller.com/2010/04/16/...-wiretapping-charge-for-filming-cop-with-gun/

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Be careful with the civil vs. criminal definitions for traffic violations as in SC the last time I heard and was on a jury for traffic violations it was a criminal court and required the same beyond a reasonable doubt as with any other crime. I am not sure that any traffic violation carries a possible jail term except DUI and possibly pasing a stopped school bus but they are handled in the same court, same judge, same jury pool and same jury instrucitons as other minor criminal cases.

As for whether you are breaking a law the SC code says:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in another place where he has a right to be

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I would have to interpret that as including speeding.

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PT111 wrote:

Be careful with the civil vs. criminal definitions for traffic violations as in SC the last time I heard and was on a jury for traffic violations it was a criminal court and required the same beyond a reasonable doubt as with any other crime. I am not sure that any traffic violation carries a possible jail term except DUI and possibly pasing a stopped school bus but they are handled in the same court, same judge, same jury pool and same jury instrucitons as other minor criminal cases.

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Thanks for the clarification.

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PT111 wrote:

Be careful with the civil vs. criminal definitions for traffic violations as in SC the last time I heard and was on a jury for traffic violations it was a criminal court and required the same beyond a reasonable doubt as with any other crime.  I am not sure that any traffic violation carries a possible jail term except DUI and possibly pasing a stopped school bus but they are handled in the same court, same judge, same jury pool and same jury instrucitons as other minor criminal cases.

As for whether you are breaking a law the SC code says:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in another place where he has a right to be

Click to expand...

I would have to interpret that as including speeding.

 

Click to expand...

So you're doing 72 mph in a 70 on your Harley, you pull up to stop, and some guy cuts you off, almost hitting you / your bike. He gets out of his vehicle, and approaches you quickly. He appears to be enraged. He begins to pull his gun...

Oh wait, but you were speeding.

-Richard-

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he would have been totaly lawful to have pulled and shot,,, any time before the cop said "im a cop!"