Stand Your Ground (as long as you're not committing a crime)

springerdave · Apr 21, 2010

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/resources/publications/manuals/magis/mag_sec6.pdf

[align=left]The decriminalization of minor traffic offenses in 1979 substantially changed the court procedures for handling these cases. Because the defendant in a civil infraction case does not face the possibility of going to jail, he or she is not entitled to all the procedural safeguards associated with a criminal trial.[/align]
[align=left]Accordingly, civil infraction hearings in traffic cases differ from criminal trials in the following respects. [/align]
[align=left]$ Jury trial is not allowed. (MCL 257.746[1], MCL 257.747[4])[/align]
[align=left]$ A defendant may be found responsible for a traffic civil infraction by only a preponderance of the evidence, rather than by the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (MCL 257.746[4], MCL 257.747[5])[/align]
[align=left]$ Because civil infractions are not "crimes," findings of responsibility are not reported on the defendant's criminal record. However, most civil infractions must still appear on the defendant's driving record maintained by the Michigan Secretary of State. (MCL 257.6a, MCL 257.732)[/align]

Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.

CoonDog · Apr 21, 2010

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I'm glad to see this as it agrees with my understanding that civil traffic infractions are actually contract violations.

Guest · Apr 21, 2010

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springerdave wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/resources/publications/manuals/magis/mag_sec6.pdf

[align=left]The decriminalization of minor traffic offenses in 1979 substantially changed the court procedures for handling these cases. Because the defendant in a civil infraction case does not face the possibility of going to jail, he or she is not entitled to all the procedural safeguards associated with a criminal trial.[/align]
[align=left]Accordingly, civil infraction hearings in traffic cases differ from criminal trials in the following respects. [/align]
[align=left]$ Jury trial is not allowed. (MCL 257.746[1], MCL 257.747[4])[/align]
[align=left]$ A defendant may be found responsible for a traffic civil infraction by only a preponderance of the evidence, rather than by the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (MCL 257.746[4], MCL 257.747[5])[/align]
[align=left]$ Because civil infractions are not "crimes," findings of responsibility are not reported on the defendant's criminal record. However, most civil infractions must still appear on the defendant's driving record maintained by the Michigan Secretary of State. (MCL 257.6a, MCL 257.732)[/align]

Click to expand...

Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.

If it is a civil infraction there will be no bench warrant.

A default judgment will be entered and fines assessed.

If the fines aren't paid by the due date, a notice will sent to the secretary of state and the driver's license suspended.

Upon any subsequent encounter, the driver could be issued a citation for driving while suspended.

Unless it is an extraditable offense, even to another jurisdiction in Michigan, the driver will not be arrested.

Insofar as the stand your ground law is concerned, in Michigan, civil infractions are not crimes and I would not hesitate stopping the threat even if i had been speeding, running red lights and stop signs, pulling wheelies, or any other moving violation considered to be a civil infraction in the state of Michigan.

As for washington state, I don't know the intricacies of their traffic laws, nor do I care. That is for the sheeple of washington to discuss.

Bronson · Apr 21, 2010

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springerdave wrote:

Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.

Click to expand...

Yes but the crime you would be arrested for at that point isn't the initial civil traffic violation it's the act of refusing to meet your punishment obligations.

Bronson

Guest · Apr 21, 2010

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Bronson wrote:

springerdave wrote:

Try to play this all the way out to the end. If you are found responsible for a civil infraction, and you do not admit responsibility for that infraction and you refuse to obey the court in paying the fines/fees assessed, then ultimately you will find yourself at the point of a gun lead in handcuffs to jail. It may not come immediately, but at some point the court system will want it's pound of flesh. They will be patient and wait till you fail to signal a left turn or something on that order, and then you will be taken into custody(bench warrant) to pay for your (now) crimes of not accepting responsibility as they TOLD you to do. It is a money thing, not a safety thing.springerdave.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yes but the crime you would be arrested for at that point isn't the initial civil traffic violation it's the act of refusing to meet your punishment obligations.

Bronson

And what crime would that be?

springerdave · Apr 21, 2010

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Pat wrote "If it is a civil infraction there will be no bench warrant.

A default judgment will be entered and fines assessed.

If the fines aren't paid by the due date, a notice will sent to the secretary of state and the driver's license suspended.

Upon any subsequent encounter, the driver could be issued a citation for driving while suspended.

Unless it is an extraditable offense, even to another jurisdiction in Michigan, the driver will not be arrested.

Insofar as the stand your ground law is concerned, in Michigan, civil infractions are not crimes and I would not hesitate stopping the threat even if i had been speeding, running red lights and stop signs, pulling wheelies, or any other moving violation considered to be a civil infraction in the state of Michigan.

As for washington state, I don't know the intricacies of their traffic laws, nor do I care. That is for the sheeple of washington to discuss."

Pat, people are arrested for driving on a suspended license here. My point is that no matter how insignificant the offense, chances are that at some time a person would be held at the point of a gun for not complying with the authorities for violation of the civil infraction.springerdave.

Guest · Apr 21, 2010

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I've never seen it happen for driving on a suspended license imposed for failure to pay civil infraction fines.

Driving while revoked for ouil... yes.

But that is a crime and not a civil infraction.

springerdave · Apr 21, 2010

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When the LEIN comes back, does it differentiate between suspensions for civil infractions and crimes?springerdave.

Guest · Apr 21, 2010

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springerdave wrote:

When the LEIN comes back, does it differentiate between suspensions for civil infractions and crimes?springerdave.

Yes. There are complete details.

sevenplusone · Apr 21, 2010

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springerdave wrote:

When the LEIN comes back, does it differentiate between suspensions for civil infractions and crimes?springerdave.

Usually states quite clearly "criminal bench warrant for failure to pay/appear......." or something along the lines of "traffic offense(s)"

Guest · Apr 21, 2010

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sevenplusone wrote:

springerdave wrote:

When the LEIN comes back, does it differentiate between suspensions for civil infractions and crimes?springerdave.

Click to expand...

Usually states quite clearly "criminal bench warrant for failure to pay/appear......." or something along the lines of "traffic offense(s)"

Which is it? Clearly or something along the lines of?

PT111 · Apr 21, 2010

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This is quite and interesting discussion and as I say you can learn a lot by surfing this board. If you are caught for speeding in MI are you just given a citation to appear? If so how about if it is an out of state driver? If you are an out of state and are given a citation rather than having to post bond and it is a civil infraction then why would you even worry about paying it unless you were planning on returning to MI in the future?

I remember the time when we in SC had to pay the officer right then or he could take you to jail. If you were a SC resident they would just issue you a summons but if out of state you paid or went to jail until someone posted bond. I am not sure exactly how they handle it now.

In NC they used to carry you before the judge no matter if you were in or out of state. I had a friend that was a night Magistrate (remember Night Court)that about he did was hear traffic cases all night.

Back then there also wasn't any kind of reporting agreement between states so you could get banned from driving in one state and as long as you didn't get caught driving in that state again you were fine. The insurance companies didn't like that at all and finally was able to put a stop to it.

sevenplusone · Apr 21, 2010

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CV67PAT wrote:

sevenplusone wrote:

springerdave wrote:

When the LEIN comes back, does it differentiate between suspensions for civil infractions and crimes?springerdave.

Click to expand...

Usually states quite clearly "criminal bench warrant for failure to pay/appear......." or something along the lines of "traffic offense(s)"

Click to expand...

Which is it? Clearly or something along the lines of?

Either or. As in, it's either clearly a 'criminal bench warrant' or it some sort of civil traffic warrant, but I don't remember how those are worded.

sevenplusone · Apr 21, 2010

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PT111 wrote:

This is quite and interesting discussion and as I say you can learn a lot by surfing this board. If you are caught for speeding in MI are you just given a citation to appear? If so how about if it is an out of state driver? If you are an out of state and are given a citation rather than having to post bond and it is a civil infraction then why would you even worry about paying it unless you were planning on returning to MI in the future?

I remember the time when we in SC had to pay the officer right then or he could take you to jail. If you were a SC resident they would just issue you a summons but if out of state you paid or went to jail until someone posted bond. I am not sure exactly how they handle it now.

In NC they used to carry you before the judge no matter if you were in or out of state. I had a friend that was a night Magistrate (remember Night Court)that about he did was hear traffic cases all night.

Back then there also wasn't any kind of reporting agreement between states so you could get banned from driving in one state and as long as you didn't get caught driving in that state again you were fine. The insurance companies didn't like that at all and finally was able to put a stop to it.

Along these lines, when my family was on vacation in Wyoming (the state for you Michiganders) we were stopped for speeding. The officer that pulled my father over made him pay on the spot as Michigan was not part of some 'nationwide' system. The ticket never came up on his Michigan ops record (I'm guessing that's common when out of state). The whole stop was quite clearly a tourist tax.

springerdave · Apr 22, 2010

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Seven said "The whole stop was quiet clearly a tourist tax." As I said before, its a money thing, not a safety thing. We have a speed tax here, like it or not.springerdave.

Evil Creamsicle · Apr 22, 2010

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1245A Defender wrote:

he would have been totaly lawful to have pulled and shot,,, any time before the cop said "im a cop!"

This does not work as a blanket statement.

One's being clearly identifiable as a police officer does not have any bearing on whether or not you can legally defend yourself against that person should they unlawfully pose an imminent threat to your life.

...although I don't expect anyone to ever be in this situation, it has come up.

Stand Your Ground (as long as you're not committing a crime)

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