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Thread: GMU Police Dept. jurisdiction

  1. #1
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    I've heard various things, like:

    -Roads adjoining GMU property
    -2 mile radius of GMU property
    -Statewide


    GMU PD is a state law enforcement agency, they run state government tags on their vehicles.

    Today on my way back from the store I saw two FCPD cars with two vehicles stopped (accident maybe) and behind them was a slicktop GMU PD Impala.

    Yes, this is OC related, because if GMU PD patrol and respond to calls beyond what people think of as "GMU" then there's a chance one might have an interaction with them while OCing, and it would be good to know how educated GMU PD is on carry laws.

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    I'm not sure about jurisdiction, I've heard different things from different people, like you mentioned. As for the police academy, I'm pretty sure that GMU PD attends the Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy, not the Fairfax County Criminal Justice Academy.

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    hunter45 wrote:
    I'm not sure about jurisdiction, I've heard different things from different people, like you mentioned. As for the police academy, I'm pretty sure that GMU PD attends the Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy, not the Fairfax County Criminal Justice Academy.
    my mistake

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    nova wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    I'm not sure about jurisdiction, I've heard different things from different people, like you mentioned. As for the police academy, I'm pretty sure that GMU PD attends the Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy, not the Fairfax County Criminal Justice Academy.
    my mistake
    Not often I see that

    I was thinking the same thing. GMU will pull people over off campus, but usually hold the perpetrator until FCPD shows up. Ive seen this about three times I think. Typically in the Summer/Fall seasons.
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    hunter45 wrote:
    I'm not sure about jurisdiction,
    Does it matter?

    There's a Va. S. Ct. opinion holding somthing like the police can arrest outside their jurisdiction as the mere fact they are police officers does not strip them of their common law power of arrest for any breach of the peace. anybody have that case handy?

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    Mike wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    I'm not sure about jurisdiction,
    Does it matter?

    There's a Va. S. Ct. opinion holding somthing like the police can arrest outside their jurisdiction as the mere fact they are police officers does not strip them of their common law power of arrest for any breach of the peace. anybody have that case handy?
    Are traffic violations breach of peace?

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    Mike wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    I'm not sure about jurisdiction,
    Does it matter?

    There's a Va. S. Ct. opinion holding somthing like the police can arrest outside their jurisdiction as the mere fact they are police officers does not strip them of their common law power of arrest for any breach of the peace. anybody have that case handy?
    Arrest out of jusrisdiction for what? Do you mean to say that in Virginia a cop outside his/her jurisdiction can arrest for a misdemeanor and/or detain for infractions? When I was a cop in another state, I could only arrest for a felony out of jurisdiction. I could not arrest for a misdemeanor and could not enforce civil infractions, except for mutual aid purposes when activated. On the other hand, while on duty, I would frequently assist on calls and traffic stops out of jusridiction. This could explain the GMU Impala on a stop. Cops are generally busy enough that most of them would not want to deal with small stuff in someone else's jusrisdiction.

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    nova wrote:
    I've heard various things, like:

    -Roads adjoining GMU property
    -2 mile radius of GMU property
    -Statewide


    GMU PD is a state law enforcement agency, they run state government tags on their vehicles.

    Today on my way back from the store I saw two FCPD cars with two vehicles stopped (accident maybe) and behind them was a slicktop GMU PD Impala.

    Yes, this is OC related, because if GMU PD patrol and respond to calls beyond what people think of as "GMU" then there's a chance one might have an interaction with them while OCing, and it would be good to know how educated GMU PD is on carry laws.
    I don't know of any law that would prohibit an officer from backing up another officer on a traffic stop out of jurisdiction or assisting with traffic control if there is an accident scene. That really doesn't fall under powers of arrest or law enforcement (they aren't the originating officer giving the ticket etc). I know it's common to see a traffic stop out of jurisdiction (ex: coming back from training out of jurisdiction or event) and many officers will just park behind the other officer's cruiser and sit in the car to watch over the stop (professional courtesy).

    On a side note, when completely outside of jurisdiction, the officer still has powers of arrest just like a citizen (felonies/breach of peace). I know most officers would only act during serious situations since you are still holding yourself and department professionally and civilly liable. Best to be a great witness than intervene in minor issues.

    Like mentioned above, GMU attends the NVCJA, and Fairfax County now has their own academy. It is interesting to note that Fairfax County was one of the original creators of the NVCJA but the department grew too large and it became cost effective to create their own academy. However, there is still mutual agreements with both academies, which allow officers from all over NOVA (including state police) to attend classes at both academies. Although right now with the budgets, classes are difficult to get into document.write('[img]/images/emoticons/banghead.gif[/img]');[img]images/emoticons/banghead.gif[/img].

    And totally off topic.... when there is a crime and a vehicle is involved, please make sure to write down the plate number. The make, model, color, door dings, and vanity bumper stickers should come after (as you can tell this was recently an issue for me). Plate numbers will make it very easy to catch them.

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    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    Take it from the Chief:
    http://gazette.gmu.edu/articles/5081

    I will speculate that the GMU officers are appointed as Special Conservators of the Peace, and with their jurisdiction limited by the appointment-order to those areas specified by the chief in his remarks in the link above.

    I haven't been able to find anything in the Virginia Administrative Code that would otherwise limit the GMU officers' jurisdiction.

    That's the way I would want it if I were the Chief. I know I wouldn't want my campus officers making off-campus traffic stops while on donut runs.

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    An alternative explanation of the university officers' authority may lie in the combination of these VAC sections:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...000+cod+23-232
    and
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...000+cod+23-233

    The more I think about it, this is probably the more likely explanation than the special conservator of the peace explanation.

    In application, its a distinction without a difference, as the officers' jurisdiction is still specified by the appointment-order of the Circuit Court. The only "technical" difference being that the university employee is a "police officer" rather than a "special conservator of the peace" -- understanding that the powers of either are the same.

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    Thanks for the info everyone. What NovaCop said makes sense, considering the GMU car was stopped behind the FCPD. Also thanks for the history of the different academies...nice to know more about my county.

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    On this whole issue of what sort of traffic violation constitutes a breach of the peace; and what can police officers, deputy sheriffs or conservators of the peace do outside their jurisdiction, there is an interesting Virginia Court of Appeals case from 2005.

    Out-of-jurisdiction deputy sheriff makes citizen's arrest for DUI.

    Read it for what its worth.

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/0560042.pdf

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    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?

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    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.
    I'll have to look for it. It's been a year or so since I posted that. The Search issue is common knowledge and I should be able to pull up other cases.

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    § 23-234. Powers and duties; jurisdiction.

    A campus police officer appointed as provided in § 23-233 or appointed and activated pursuant to § 23-233.1 may exercise the powers and duties conferred by law upon police officers of cities, towns, or counties, and shall be so deemed, including but not limited to the provisions of Chapters 5 (§ 19.2-52 et seq.), 7 (§ 19.2-71 et seq.), and 23 (§ 19.2-387 et seq.) of Title 19.2, (i) upon any property owned or controlled by the relevant public or private institution of higher education, or, upon request, any property owned or controlled by another public or private institution of higher education and upon the streets, sidewalks, and highways, immediately adjacent thereto, (ii) pursuant to a mutual aid agreement provided for in § 15.2-1727 between the governing board of a public or private institution and such other institution of higher education, public or private, in the Commonwealth or adjacent political subdivisions, (iii) in close pursuit of a person as provided in § 19.2-77, and (iv) upon approval by the appropriate circuit court of a petition by the local governing body for concurrent jurisdiction in designated areas with the police officers of the county, city, or town in which the institution, its satellite campuses, or other properties are located. The local governing body may petition the circuit court pursuant only to a request by the local law-enforcement agency for concurrent jurisdiction.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    user wrote:
    § 23-234. Powers and duties; jurisdiction.

    A campus police officer appointed as provided in § 23-233 or appointed and activated pursuant to § 23-233.1 may exercise the powers and duties conferred by law upon police officers of cities, towns, or counties, and shall be so deemed, including but not limited to the provisions of Chapters 5 (§ 19.2-52 et seq.), 7 (§ 19.2-71 et seq.), and 23 (§ 19.2-387 et seq.) of Title 19.2, (i) upon any property owned or controlled by the relevant public or private institution of higher education, or, upon request, any property owned or controlled by another public or private institution of higher education and upon the streets, sidewalks, and highways, immediately adjacent thereto, (ii) pursuant to a mutual aid agreement provided for in § 15.2-1727 between the governing board of a public or private institution and such other institution of higher education, public or private, in the Commonwealth or adjacent political subdivisions, (iii) in close pursuit of a person as provided in § 19.2-77, and (iv) upon approval by the appropriate circuit court of a petition by the local governing body for concurrent jurisdiction in designated areas with the police officers of the county, city, or town in which the institution, its satellite campuses, or other properties are located. The local governing body may petition the circuit court pursuant only to a request by the local law-enforcement agency for concurrent jurisdiction.
    Thanks! That's exactly what I needed!

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.
    IF, he identifies himself as a police officer AND he is certified in the Commonwealth of VA AND, you knock him on his *ss, you are guilty of a felony. IF however, he identifies himself as a police officer and he is NOT certified by the Commonwealth, HE is guilty of impersonating a police officer and YOU can have him arrested!

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    Vanns40 wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.
    IF, he identifies himself as a police officer AND he is certified in the Commonwealth of VA AND, you knock him on his *ss, you are guilty of a felony. IF however, he identifies himself as a police officer and he is NOT certified by the Commonwealth, HE is guilty of impersonating a police officer and YOU can have him arrested!
    I seldom offer any opinions on this subject, because it's one in which you basically have to be right - there's no "good faith" or "reasonable belief" defense.

    That said, I would point out that I'm a "lawyer" everywhere because I've been graduated from an accredited school of law. But I'm only an "attorney" in Virginia, because that's where I'm licensed (though that gets me into certain federal courts as well). Same principle applies to cops. Unless there's a statute that says so, a cop's territorial authority pretty much ends at the borders of the state, county, city, or town he's working for. A Fairfax County police officer has no greaterauthority in Dinwiddie than he does in Georgia. He's not a "law enforcement officer" in those places.

    Point two, and the one that's potentially dangerous. In Virginia, every person has an absolute right to resist an unlawful arrest, and to use such degree of force as is necessary to do so, including deadly force. Now, consider that Title 18.2 and 19.2 of the Virginia Code cover crimes and criminal procedure. I can't even remember whether that's in two or three volumes, total, but I can tell you that I don't have it all memorized, though I've got a better handle on it than most attorneys. And it changes every year in a couple of dozen ways which are not catalogued anywhere. I would not trust my own knowledge of the law, absent an eggregious and blatant violation by a cop, to feel justified in resisting.

    That guy, Anderson, I think his name was, in Roanoke who was arrested because he didn't want to talk about his gun, could have lawfully resisted arrest to the point of shooting at least one of the cops in my opinion. But I'm pretty sure he'd have wound up dead if he'd done so. And that's because the cops would have murdered him in retaliation. No question in my mind. His family might have had a cause of action for wrongful death, but where's the witnesses? And who's going to prosecute the cops for murder, much less abduction?

    The moral of the story is this: you may be able to knock him on his arse, and you may be able to have him arrested, from a strictly legal point of view. But as a practical matter, you're likely to wind up dead and the cop will not be arrested, even if you can find someone willing to take the complaint.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    user wrote:
    Vanns40 wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.
    IF, he identifies himself as a police officer AND he is certified in the Commonwealth of VA AND, you knock him on his *ss, you are guilty of a felony. IF however, he identifies himself as a police officer and he is NOT certified by the Commonwealth, HE is guilty of impersonating a police officer and YOU can have him arrested!
    I seldom offer any opinions on this subject, because it's one in which you basically have to be right - there's no "good faith" or "reasonable belief" defense.

    That said, I would point out that I'm a "lawyer" everywhere because I've been graduated from an accredited school of law. But I'm only an "attorney" in Virginia, because that's where I'm licensed (though that gets me into certain federal courts as well). Same principle applies to cops. Unless there's a statute that says so, a cop's territorial authority pretty much ends at the borders of the state, county, city, or town he's working for. A Fairfax County police officer has no greaterauthority in Dinwiddie than he does in Georgia. He's not a "law enforcement officer" in those places.

    Point two, and the one that's potentially dangerous. In Virginia, every person has an absolute right to resist an unlawful arrest, and to use such degree of force as is necessary to do so, including deadly force. Now, consider that Title 18.2 and 19.2 of the Virginia Code cover crimes and criminal procedure. I can't even remember whether that's in two or three volumes, total, but I can tell you that I don't have it all memorized, though I've got a better handle on it than most attorneys. And it changes every year in a couple of dozen ways which are not catalogued anywhere. I would not trust my own knowledge of the law, absent an eggregious and blatant violation by a cop, to feel justified in resisting.

    That guy, Anderson, I think his name was, in Roanoke who was arrested because he didn't want to talk about his gun, could have lawfully resisted arrest to the point of shooting at least one of the cops in my opinion. But I'm pretty sure he'd have wound up dead if he'd done so. And that's because the cops would have murdered him in retaliation. No question in my mind. His family might have had a cause of action for wrongful death, but where's the witnesses? And who's going to prosecute the cops for murder, much less abduction?

    The moral of the story is this: you may be able to knock him on his arse, and you may be able to have him arrested, from a strictly legal point of view. But as a practical matter, you're likely to wind up dead and the cop will not be arrested, even if you can find someone willing to take the complaint.
    So how do we defend against this mode of tyranny?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    2a4all wrote:
    ...
    So how do we defend against this mode of tyranny?
    I was a History major in college. And from that, I learned one important thing: the only way in which people have substantially changed in the last eight thousand years of recorded history is that we have learned to move bigger and heavier things farther and faster. It's them humans. If we could just get rid of all the humans, the Earth would be just fine.

    My father told me that Franklin Roosevelt had often told him when he was little, that everyone has his own agenda; that he will do what he can to give effect to his own agenda; and that he can be bought, manipulated, and sold according to his agenda.

    Here's the point: you give someone power, it had better be the right person; one whose agenda is in line with yours. If you don't know how to select the people to whom you give power well, you will only be implementing someone else's agenda.

    We humans do not have a good record for selecting people whom we wish to exercise power over us. The only exception I can think of is the story represented in the films, "The Seven Samurai" and the remake, "The Magnificent Seven". Normally, when the peasants in the village hire gunslingers to rid the area of bandits, all they do is bring in a new bunch of bandits.

    My personal view is that each of us must see to his own spiritual development first and above all else; the heathens and barbarians are going to keep on doing what they've always done. "Seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven, and all these things will be added unto you."

    But don't forget to keep your head (and your butt) down and out of the line of fire.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    user wrote:
    Vanns40 wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.
    IF, he identifies himself as a police officer AND he is certified in the Commonwealth of VA AND, you knock him on his *ss, you are guilty of a felony. IF however, he identifies himself as a police officer and he is NOT certified by the Commonwealth, HE is guilty of impersonating a police officer and YOU can have him arrested!
    I seldom offer any opinions on this subject, because it's one in which you basically have to be right - there's no "good faith" or "reasonable belief" defense.

    That said, I would point out that I'm a "lawyer" everywhere because I've been graduated from an accredited school of law. But I'm only an "attorney" in Virginia, because that's where I'm licensed (though that gets me into certain federal courts as well). Same principle applies to cops. Unless there's a statute that says so, a cop's territorial authority pretty much ends at the borders of the state, county, city, or town he's working for. A Fairfax County police officer has no greaterauthority in Dinwiddie than he does in Georgia. He's not a "law enforcement officer" in those places.

    Point two, and the one that's potentially dangerous. In Virginia, every person has an absolute right to resist an unlawful arrest, and to use such degree of force as is necessary to do so, including deadly force. Now, consider that Title 18.2 and 19.2 of the Virginia Code cover crimes and criminal procedure. I can't even remember whether that's in two or three volumes, total, but I can tell you that I don't have it all memorized, though I've got a better handle on it than most attorneys. And it changes every year in a couple of dozen ways which are not catalogued anywhere. I would not trust my own knowledge of the law, absent an eggregious and blatant violation by a cop, to feel justified in resisting.

    That guy, Anderson, I think his name was, in Roanoke who was arrested because he didn't want to talk about his gun, could have lawfully resisted arrest to the point of shooting at least one of the cops in my opinion. But I'm pretty sure he'd have wound up dead if he'd done so. And that's because the cops would have murdered him in retaliation. No question in my mind. His family might have had a cause of action for wrongful death, but where's the witnesses? And who's going to prosecute the cops for murder, much less abduction?

    The moral of the story is this: you may be able to knock him on his arse, and you may be able to have him arrested, from a strictly legal point of view. But as a practical matter, you're likely to wind up dead and the cop will not be arrested, even if you can find someone willing to take the complaint.
    So how do we defend against this mode of tyranny?
    Thank you User. That was an excellent answer.

    For the benefit of some of the more energetic members here, it was also an academic question.

    Knocking Police Officers on their posteriors, no matter what venue they're in, ranks right up there with Rattlesnake Kissing. It should be avoided

  23. #23
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    user wrote:
    Vanns40 wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Most Departments limit their Officers due mostly to Budget and Manpower allocation.

    Anyone can make a citizens arrest for a felony or BOP.
    Now, the interesting thing is that if they make the arrest as a Citizen, the constitutional limits on search and seizure, don't apply.

    Somewhere here, I posted case law about two off duty airport cops that caught a DUI at a stoplight, while in one of their private cars.

    They searched the man and car while waiting for the local cops and found drugs. He appealed the conviction and the court ruled that the constitutional limits protected the citizen from the government, not another Citizen.

    Now the question I have is, if I'm pulled by a Cop out of his venue and decide I don't want to be searched and knock him on his azz....am I guilty of felony assault of a Police Officer or simple assault of a Citizen ?:?
    Good question. Hmmm I can't recall a case of this occurring although I do remember someone bringing this up during legal class. The instructor stated that if you are acting as a citizen, then most likely you would be charged as such. A commonwealth attorney may charge with the felony and let the court decide.

    Someone questioned above about LEO's out of jurisdiction and DUI. DUI's are obviously breach of peace misdemeanors and would be ok to detain. Most likely the officer would just detain until the local LEO's can come.

    Can you cite what case law that allowed the officers to search if they were acting as citizens? That is a surprise.
    IF, he identifies himself as a police officer AND he is certified in the Commonwealth of VA AND, you knock him on his *ss, you are guilty of a felony. IF however, he identifies himself as a police officer and he is NOT certified by the Commonwealth, HE is guilty of impersonating a police officer and YOU can have him arrested!
    I seldom offer any opinions on this subject, because it's one in which you basically have to be right - there's no "good faith" or "reasonable belief" defense.

    That said, I would point out that I'm a "lawyer" everywhere because I've been graduated from an accredited school of law. But I'm only an "attorney" in Virginia, because that's where I'm licensed (though that gets me into certain federal courts as well). Same principle applies to cops. Unless there's a statute that says so, a cop's territorial authority pretty much ends at the borders of the state, county, city, or town he's working for. A Fairfax County police officer has no greaterauthority in Dinwiddie than he does in Georgia. He's not a "law enforcement officer" in those places.

    Point two, and the one that's potentially dangerous. In Virginia, every person has an absolute right to resist an unlawful arrest, and to use such degree of force as is necessary to do so, including deadly force. Now, consider that Title 18.2 and 19.2 of the Virginia Code cover crimes and criminal procedure. I can't even remember whether that's in two or three volumes, total, but I can tell you that I don't have it all memorized, though I've got a better handle on it than most attorneys. And it changes every year in a couple of dozen ways which are not catalogued anywhere. I would not trust my own knowledge of the law, absent an eggregious and blatant violation by a cop, to feel justified in resisting.

    That guy, Anderson, I think his name was, in Roanoke who was arrested because he didn't want to talk about his gun, could have lawfully resisted arrest to the point of shooting at least one of the cops in my opinion. But I'm pretty sure he'd have wound up dead if he'd done so. And that's because the cops would have murdered him in retaliation. No question in my mind. His family might have had a cause of action for wrongful death, but where's the witnesses? And who's going to prosecute the cops for murder, much less abduction?

    The moral of the story is this: you may be able to knock him on his arse, and you may be able to have him arrested, from a strictly legal point of view. But as a practical matter, you're likely to wind up dead and the cop will not be arrested, even if you can find someone willing to take the complaint.
    Like mentioned above, VA does allow citizens to physically resist an unlawful arrest (and does not prohibit deadly force). I see several issues with someone physically resisting an unlawful arrest/detention. With that statement, let me also say that I am not for anyone having their right's violated nor any misconduct by police.

    The biggest issue I see with allowing someone to physically resist an unlawful arrest is "ignorance". Many people do not clearly understand the laws and Constitution, and may resist believing they are in the right and are not. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone demanded to know "the probable cause for you to stop me?".

    Another issue is that an arrest is not a conviction. You are viewed innocent until proven guilty. If you had to place a percentage on probable cause, it would not equal 100%. There are situations where an officer has reached enough probable cause to arrest a citizen who may actually be innocent of that crime. That citizen would assume since they are innocent, that they are being unlawfully arrested and have the opportunity to use force against the officer. All while, the officer believes with his p.c. that it is lawful and returns using force.

    Lastly, responding officers will only see the citizen resisting arrest (possibly with deadly force) and will react with a greater amount of force (even deadly). They obviously won't have time to sort out the facts in the case when they come on scene and will not be liable for their force since they are reacting to what they know at the time.

    With all of that said, It's my opinion that everything is best settled in court. If an unlawful arrest is determined, then accountability should follow.

  24. #24
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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    [b]It's my opinion that everything is best settled in court.* If an unlawful arrest is determined, then accountability should follow.*
    +1.

  25. #25
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    nova wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    [b]It's my opinion that everything is best settled in court. If an unlawful arrest is determined, then accountability should follow.
    +1.
    ++
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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