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Thread: Holy ****!

  1. #1
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    That was intense. Everyone was calm and professional, but when you recognize the power that they could exercise (not legally) it speeds up the heart rate and dries the mouth.

    Anyway, after reading on OCDO about a mall that had no-carry signs posted, I wondered about Eastdale Mall. So, while I was out today, I stopped by. I approached the entrance, and just as I had recalled, there were no signs prohibiting carry. So, in I went. After visiting a bunch of my usual stores, garnering hardly any looks, and receiving zero comments, I assumed that OC at Eastdale was no big deal.

    I was about to head for the exit I noticed I had picked up a tail. A mall observe-and-reportity seemed to be following me. Was he keeping an eye on me, or was he going to inform me that the mall did not allow carry? I kept him on my radar, but decided to let him make any move. Then, ahead and to my right was the LEO. I kept about my (legal) business. The officer turned directly toward me. He greeted me, so I greeted him. He then asked the fateful question: "Why are you carrying that?" gesturing to my pistol.

    I had prepared for this moment, so I knew to appear to cooperate, while not really saying anything. So, I replied, "It's legal, isn't it?" He said, "I know the law." I didn't think he did, but confrontation was his friend, not mine. He asked if we could talk about it. I shrugged. He asked me if I would go with him into the office. It was right there. I don't know if it was smart, but making a scene wouldn't have been, so I went with him.

    It turned out to be wise; the office had a security camera. I asked the mall "security" how long they kept the tapes while pointing to the camera. They replied 9 days. As long as I did nothing illegal (and, I planned on doing nothing illegal), the officer would be stuck behaving legally--or risk my being able to prove he didn't. He asked me for my pistol. I told him that I did not consent to his taking it, but that I would not resist if he chose to seize it. I pointed to the buckle and move my hands up and out of the way. He unfastened my belt and removed it and the gun.

    He immediately noticed that it was in condition 1. "You've even got it cocked!" he said. He seemed shocked. I pointed to the safety and told him that it was on, and that that was the safest way to carry a 1911 (as I had learned this the hard way). He asked me for my identification. I had no objection to that, so I gave him my driver's license. He asked if I had a permit to CC. I reminded him that I was not carrying concealed. He asked again, and I said yes. He asked why I didn't carry concealed. I didn't answer.

    He left me in the office while he stepped outside the door--with my belt, pistol, and phone. I asked him for my phone. He said that I would get it back later. I am fairly certain that he broke the law there. He must have been calling in, because when he returned, I went through the "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" routine, to which he replied I was and that we were waiting for his captain and lieutenant. When I asked why I was being detained, he assured me that I was not under arrest and went into the story of how he came to be there. I told him that I understood that and reminded him that I asked why I was being detained. He threw out some vague stuff about checking things out, so I prompted him, "Are you saying that I am being detained while you investigate." He said that he was.

    I repeated the questions, "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" a bunch of times to no-yesses each time. He asked me for my CPL. I told him that I was not CCing, so I did not want to give it to him. I really thought he was planning on confiscating it (which, of course, would be illegal). He told me again that he wanted it. I told him that I was not consenting to the seizure, but would not resist him taking it, as I placed it on the table and made him overtly take it. He checked my address on the license. I verified it. He asked for my employer. I asked if I had to answer that question. He said that I didn't. I already knew that, but it sounds better than, "I refuse to answer that question." He must have figured out that I was not going to play his game anymore, so he stopped asking questions.

    We sat there for what seemed like an interminable amount of time without talking to each other before the brass finally arrived. They added nothing to the situation. They tried the why-are-you stuff. I said it's not illegal. They repeated that they knew the law. These guys probably did. I had told the first officer that I had a letter from the sheriff saying the OC was legal and that the deputy chief of MPD had checked with the city attorney who had told him that it was legal. They, no doubt, double-checked the law before coming to the mall.

    They quickly realized that I was simply not going to discuss the matter with them. When they asked how I expected the person who had called 911 to react to my gun, I said, "lawfully." When they asked how I expected them to react to the 911 call, I said, "check it out--lawfully." When they asked how I should react, I told them that now that I knew that the mall had a policy (not posted, one of the mall "security" showed me a business card with "policies" on it) against weapons, I would gather my property and leave.

    They gave up. It seemed like they wanted to teach me a lesson or something, but realized that I was literate in the matter. They were on camera, and I knew that they were on camera, and they knew that I knew...., so funny business on their part was out of the question. Once again, I asked if I was free to leave, and the answer was finally and blessedly yes. The officer and I walked out together. He kept trying to find out what I was up to, but I wouldn't bite. I pointed out the lack of signage on the doors to the mall. We walked to my car. He gave me back my magazine and pistol. I asked him if he had replaced the round from the chamber to the magazine. He had. I inspected the pistol to ensure it was not loaded, mentioned that I did not like handling it in public, that the safest thing to do would be to leave it holstered. In front of him, I put the clip back in, released the slide catch, put the safety on, and reholstered the gun. I put it in the car, but did not get in yet.

    The officer asked if he had returned my licenses. I was sure he did, but there was no way I was getting in the car with that gun until I checked. (Always assume that your wallet is not loaded.) I checked. I had them. We shook hands. I wished him a good day, by name, and left.

    As I pulled away, I let loose a whole bunch of pent up profanities, and then followed every traffic rule on the way home.

    I probably could have handled the situation better. More things that I should do were racing through my mind than I seemed to have the capacity to do. Time passed in a totally oxymoronic way. When I needed to think, time raced. When, I wanted time to race, it dragged. I estimate the the whole thing took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

    So, feel free to rip apart how I handled the situation. I have no pride of authorship here. If I put myself in legal danger, let me know.

    Holy ****!


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    Sounds like you handled it pretty reasonably to me. Good job.

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    You did a pretty good job in handling it. I haven't had an encounter like that yet but I'm sure we all will at some point.



    By the way, what's the best range around here? I need to find somewhere to go until I can get a berm built so the 'Holier-than-thou's' in my thread will quit arguing semantics and past history.

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    I used to use the Central Alabama Gun Club west of Montgomery. It's about 30 min for me, so an hour for you. It's like $120 a year (maybe more) for an outdoor range, not that well kept. Lately, I have been buying daily passes at a park near Auburn, but that's even farther.

    I read the other thread. Some people had constructive things to say. Some were just jerks. I am sorry you were treated like that. We all have ideas how to do some things better. We get better results when we share those in a respectful way.

    So, I hereby order you to find something I did wrong at the mall, and tell me what that is.

    On edit: A post intervened so it might not be clear that this was a reply to DJDD.

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    SFCRetired wrote:
    Now send a nice letter to Mr. David Schloss, manager of Eastdale Mall, informing him of why you will no longer be spending your money there.

    Personal opinion: I think you handled it very well. I don't think either Mall security or the Montgomery Police came out nearly as well.

    One of my friends happens to be a Montgomery police officer as well as being a former Marine. He's a good guy and I had the privilege of educating him about open carry over a year ago. He had been told (by whom I don't know) that it wasn't legal.

    As an aside: from what I am seeing in and around Eastdale Mall, I predict that it won't be that long before it goes the way of Montgomery Mall. From what I have been told, the same crowd that caused the demise of Montgomery Mall is now hanging out at Eastdale Mall. Security there is a joke. My wife loves the place, but I resist going there as much as I can without getting kicked out of the house!!
    I will write that note. I just want to wait until the blood pressure subsides a few thousand points.

    I wonder how quickly the no-gun signs go up.

  7. #7
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    eye95 wrote:
    I used to use the Central Alabama Gun Club west of Montgomery. It's about 30 min for me, so an hour for you. It's like $120 a year (maybe more) for an outdoor range, not that well kept. Lately, I have been buying daily passes at a park near Auburn, but that's even farther.

    I read the other thread. Some people had constructive things to say. Some were just jerks. I am sorry you were treated like that. We all have ideas how to do some things better. We get better results when we share those in a respectful way.

    So, I hereby order you to find something I did wrong at the mall, and tell me what that is.

    On edit: A post intervened so it might not be clear that this was a reply to DJDD.
    This is why I use my property. Nothing close is decent and nothing decent is close.



    As for your mall escapade I can only find one thing wrong.......



    You went to the mall.Seriously, mallsare so 1985. :celebrate

  8. #8
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    guy who is a gorilla, great story! took your firearm, sounded like they were at best cops at the low level. grilled you like a ...............nevermind. you came through a savage day at the hands of your fellow man, and did it with style.

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    Great job! My heart was pounding the whole time I was reading your story. I believe you handled it 100 times better than I would.



    Now, my suggestion, go back to the mall and ask for a copy of the video!! It could be a good training video! Not sure if they would just give you a copy or if there were legal ways that you would have to go through to get it. If that were the case, then it may not be worth the monies to get the copy.



    Anyway, great job!

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    Alas, the only way to get the video is by subpoena. My interest in the video may have been a motivator for good behavior.

    They do nothing seriously wrong = no court action = no subpoena.

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    Regular Member Jonathon Norris's Avatar
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    My hat's off to you, sir.

    Guys, we are all headed towards encounters like this for awhile, whether we like it or not. Mentally prepare yourselves.

    I look forward to my first major encounter, and hope I can handle itwell.

    Consider it a mark of pride, Eye. Five or so years ago, you might have been arrested. We are making progress.
    A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
    But have his weapons to hand:
    He knows not when he may need a spear,
    Or what menace meet on the road.

    - Odin
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    For a while, I was convinced I was going to be arrested. I kept running through my mind anything that I could possibly have done to justify it, and could find nothing. Yet, I was sure that the officer was going to do it anyway.

    I don't hesitate to say this.

    I was scared.

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    You should have invited the officer to Starbucks for a cup of coffe on you Sunday meets. LOL Who knows, he may have come and seen that you all were a bunch of good guys doing nothing wrong.

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    Interesting idea. I hope he got that impression from me.

    Besides, I don't know how the other guys would appreciate me bringing to them the storm that befell me!

    Ask DJDD to invite Deputy John T. Pigford, or whatever his name was!



    Edited to change Pighorn to Pigford.

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    eye95 wrote:
    That was intense. Everyone was calm and professional, but when you recognize the power that they could exercise (not legally) it speeds up the heart rate and dries the mouth.

    Anyway, after reading on OCDO about a mall that had no-carry signs posted, I wondered about Eastdale Mall. So, while I was out today, I stopped by. I approached the entrance, and just as I had recalled, there were no signs prohibiting carry. So, in I went. After visiting a bunch of my usual stores, garnering hardly any looks, and receiving zero comments, I assumed that OC at Eastdale was no big deal.

    I was about to head for the exit I noticed I had picked up a tail. A mall observe-and-reportity seemed to be following me. Was he keeping an eye on me, or was he going to inform me that the mall did not allow carry? I kept him on my radar, but decided to let him make any move. Then, ahead and to my right was the LEO. I kept about my (legal) business. The officer turned directly toward me. He greeted me, so I greeted him. He then asked the fateful question: "Why are you carrying that?" gesturing to my pistol.

    I had prepared for this moment, so I knew to appear to cooperate, while not really saying anything. So, I replied, "It's legal, isn't it?" He said, "I know the law." I didn't think he did, but confrontation was his friend, not mine. He asked if we could talk about it. I shrugged. He asked me if I would go with him into the office. It was right there. I don't know if it was smart, but making a scene wouldn't have been, so I went with him.

    It turned out to be wise; the office had a security camera. I asked the mall "security" how long they kept the tapes while pointing to the camera. They replied 9 days. As long as I did nothing illegal (and, I planned on doing nothing illegal), the officer would be stuck behaving legally--or risk my being able to prove he didn't. He asked me for my pistol. I told him that I did not consent to his taking it, but that I would not resist if he chose to seize it. I pointed to the buckle and move my hands up and out of the way. He unfastened my belt and removed it and the gun.

    He immediately noticed that it was in condition 1. "You've even got it cocked!" he said. He seemed shocked. I pointed to the safety and told him that it was on, and that that was the safest way to carry a 1911 (as I had learned this the hard way). He asked me for my identification. I had no objection to that, so I gave him my driver's license. He asked if I had a permit to CC. I reminded him that I was not carrying concealed. He asked again, and I said yes. He asked why I didn't carry concealed. I didn't answer.

    He left me in the office while he stepped outside the door--with my belt, pistol, and phone. I asked him for my phone. He said that I would get it back later. I am fairly certain that he broke the law there. He must have been calling in, because when he returned, I went through the "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" routine, to which he replied I was and that we were waiting for his captain and lieutenant. When I asked why I was being detained, he assured me that I was not under arrest and went into the story of how he came to be there. I told him that I understood that and reminded him that I asked why I was being detained. He threw out some vague stuff about checking things out, so I prompted him, "Are you saying that I am being detained while you investigate." He said that he was.

    I repeated the questions, "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" a bunch of times to no-yesses each time. He asked me for my CPL. I told him that I was not CCing, so I did not want to give it to him. I really thought he was planning on confiscating it (which, of course, would be illegal). He told me again that he wanted it. I told him that I was not consenting to the seizure, but would not resist him taking it, as I placed it on the table and made him overtly take it. He checked my address on the license. I verified it. He asked for my employer. I asked if I had to answer that question. He said that I didn't. I already knew that, but it sounds better than, "I refuse to answer that question." He must have figured out that I was not going to play his game anymore, so he stopped asking questions.

    We sat there for what seemed like an interminable amount of time without talking to each other before the brass finally arrived. They added nothing to the situation. They tried the why-are-you stuff. I said it's not illegal. They repeated that they knew the law. These guys probably did. I had told the first officer that I had a letter from the sheriff saying the OC was legal and that the deputy chief of MPD had checked with the city attorney who had told him that it was legal. They, no doubt, double-checked the law before coming to the mall.

    They quickly realized that I was simply not going to discuss the matter with them. When they asked how I expected the person who had called 911 to react to my gun, I said, "lawfully." When they asked how I expected them to react to the 911 call, I said, "check it out--lawfully." When they asked how I should react, I told them that now that I knew that the mall had a policy (not posted, one of the mall "security" showed me a business card with "policies" on it) against weapons, I would gather my property and leave.

    They gave up. It seemed like they wanted to teach me a lesson or something, but realized that I was literate in the matter. They were on camera, and I knew that they were on camera, and they knew that I knew...., so funny business on their part was out of the question. Once again, I asked if I was free to leave, and the answer was finally and blessedly yes. The officer and I walked out together. He kept trying to find out what I was up to, but I wouldn't bite. I pointed out the lack of signage on the doors to the mall. We walked to my car. He gave me back my magazine and pistol. I asked him if he had replaced the round from the chamber to the magazine. He had. I inspected the pistol to ensure it was not loaded, mentioned that I did not like handling it in public, that the safest thing to do would be to leave it holstered. In front of him, I put the clip back in, released the slide catch, put the safety on, and reholstered the gun. I put it in the car, but did not get in yet.

    The officer asked if he had returned my licenses. I was sure he did, but there was no way I was getting in the car with that gun until I checked. (Always assume that your wallet is not loaded.) I checked. I had them. We shook hands. I wished him a good day, by name, and left.

    As I pulled away, I let loose a whole bunch of pent up profanities, and then followed every traffic rule on the way home.

    I probably could have handled the situation better. More things that I should do were racing through my mind than I seemed to have the capacity to do. Time passed in a totally oxymoronic way. When I needed to think, time raced. When, I wanted time to race, it dragged. I estimate the the whole thing took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

    So, feel free to rip apart how I handled the situation. I have no pride of authorship here. If I put myself in legal danger, let me know.

    Holy ****!


    1911's are threatening, next time try someing smaller or just conceal. It seems as if you are looking for a confrontation.










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    The type of pistol that I legally carry should be of no consequence. It surprises me that someone at OCDO would think it does.

    My 1911 is the pistol that I own and carry. I don't feel like spending a bundle of cash on another handgun.

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    eye95 wrote:
    I don't hesitate to say this.

    I¬* was¬* scared.
    Nothing wrong with that. I assure you I would be scared in your situation. I have not yet had the 'pleasure' of a LEO encounter while OCing.

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    Regular Member Jonathon Norris's Avatar
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    Eye, Kwik's just being sarcastic. You could write a book about his encounters with the law. Check the Tenn forums if you have an hour or two. Lol.

    Do you guys ever have get togethers up there? Might be fun to do a Southeastern Meet-up.

    Kwik - smiley icons! People don't know you are kidding sometimes.

    :P:?:what::celebrate
    A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
    But have his weapons to hand:
    He knows not when he may need a spear,
    Or what menace meet on the road.

    - Odin
    The Havamal

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    Jonathon Norris wrote:
    Eye, Kwik's just being sarcastic. You could write a book about his encounters with the law. Check the Tenn forums if you have an hour or two. Lol.

    Do you guys ever have get togethers up there? Might be fun to do a Southeastern Meet-up.

    Kwik - smiley icons! People don't know you are kidding sometimes.

    :P:?:what::celebrate
    Oh, OK. Whew!

    Sorry 'bout that Kwik. I was somewhat in a state of shock that someone here would say such a thing!

    It's cool.

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    Very good write up, well written. I for one don't plan on "ripping you apart". Every situation is different and everyone says I'm gonna do this or if this happens I'm gonna do that. But it rarely ever happens the way it does in our imaginations. And often, after it's over, we say I shoulda done or said this.... Personally, I think the outcome was ok overall. By your account the cops didn't seem to go ballistic or overboard (I don't agree with everything...I'll get to that) I think you handled yourself professionally and kept your cool. Now like I said until it happens to me I can't say 100% how I would react but this is how I "think" I would have reacted to some of what went down.

    1. Will I go to the office? - I would have said "I rather not, but if they (the mall) are asking me to leave because I am carrying I will gladly do so."

    2. Can I have your pistol? - "I have broken no laws and if I am not under arrest I rather not, I have no plans of unholstering it or breaking any law"

    3. Can I see ID or CC? - I am trying to get in a habit if I am oc'ing, to leave my ID and CC in the car, this prevents me producing it and takes care of the problem of them following me to the car to verify I have a CC, cause it's there. I would have said "I do have ID and a CC but I have neither on me as I don't need them on foot"

    Everything else you were dead on, Am I being detained, am I free to go, under what reason am I being detained? No answer to employment or any other personal questions. I would try and remain calm especially if I knew I was recording it. Now if a LEO is cussing me an screaming in my face, I'm not sure I wouldn't get loud back but there again, until it happens, who can say. Today I made myself carry my recorder and while I was eating lunch I practiced turning it on quickly.

    I think 2 hours being detained without being arrested was excessive. Maybe we all need at least one experience like this to get the nerves out of the way and help us get ready for next time.

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    This experience will make the next time a LOT easier.

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    kwikrnu wrote:


    1911's are threatening, next time try something smaller or just conceal. It seems as if you are looking for a confrontation.
    Yeah, right. Millions of American civilians, soldiers, airmen, sailors, Marines, coasties, and LEO's have carried 1911's over the past century, and continue to do so today, with no unusual threat found in them by the unarmed masses.

    How many carry orange Draco AK pistols? I haven't seen any video footage or pictures, nor even a casual mention, of AK pistols carried in the U.S. to enforce the law or defend the nation.

    Hmmmm.

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    Eye, if you have an extra $30-$110 bucks or so(charges vary) you could benefit, experience wise, from a FOIA of the police report. It might be something you could hand down to your kids/grandkids for their gov class in school. Also if you haven't already, check out the experiences thread in the Michigan stickies.springerdave.

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    Thanks for the info. The last time I requested a police report with my name on it, it was free. Things might have changed, though.

    And, thanks for the reminder. I hadn't yet added getting the police report to my to do list for today.

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    Thanks and good story.

    And you should Follow EVERY traffic law/rule always every time anyway

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