eye95
Well-known member
imported post
That was intense. Everyone was calm and professional, but when you recognize the power that they could exercise (not legally) it speeds up the heart rate and dries the mouth.
Anyway, after reading on OCDO about a mall that had no-carry signs posted, I wondered about Eastdale Mall. So, while I was out today, I stopped by. I approached the entrance, and just as I had recalled, there were no signs prohibiting carry. So, in I went. After visiting a bunch of my usual stores, garnering hardly any looks, and receiving zero comments, I assumed that OC at Eastdale was no big deal.
I was about to head for the exit I noticed I had picked up a tail. A mall observe-and-reportity seemed to be following me. Was he keeping an eye on me, or was he going to inform me that the mall did not allow carry? I kept him on my radar, but decided to let him make any move. Then, ahead and to my right was the LEO. I kept about my (legal) business. The officer turned directly toward me. He greeted me, so I greeted him. He then asked the fateful question: "Why are you carrying that?" gesturing to my pistol.
I had prepared for this moment, so I knew to appear to cooperate, while not really saying anything. So, I replied, "It's legal, isn't it?" He said, "I know the law." I didn't think he did, but confrontation was his friend, not mine. He asked if we could talk about it. I shrugged. He asked me if I would go with him into the office. It was right there. I don't know if it was smart, but making a scene wouldn't have been, so I went with him.
It turned out to be wise; the office had a security camera. I asked the mall "security" how long they kept the tapes while pointing to the camera. They replied 9 days. As long as I did nothing illegal (and, I planned on doing nothing illegal), the officer would be stuck behaving legally--or risk my being able to prove he didn't. He asked me for my pistol. I told him that I did not consent to his taking it, but that I would not resist if he chose to seize it. I pointed to the buckle and move my hands up and out of the way. He unfastened my belt and removed it and the gun.
He immediately noticed that it was in condition 1. "You've even got it cocked!" he said. He seemed shocked. I pointed to the safety and told him that it was on, and that that was the safest way to carry a 1911 (as I had learned this the hard way). He asked me for my identification. I had no objection to that, so I gave him my driver's license. He asked if I had a permit to CC. I reminded him that I was not carrying concealed. He asked again, and I said yes. He asked why I didn't carry concealed. I didn't answer.
He left me in the office while he stepped outside the door--with my belt, pistol, and phone. I asked him for my phone. He said that I would get it back later. I am fairly certain that he broke the law there. He must have been calling in, because when he returned, I went through the "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" routine, to which he replied I was and that we were waiting for his captain and lieutenant. When I asked why I was being detained, he assured me that I was not under arrest and went into the story of how he came to be there. I told him that I understood that and reminded him that I asked why I was being detained. He threw out some vague stuff about checking things out, so I prompted him, "Are you saying that I am being detained while you investigate." He said that he was.
I repeated the questions, "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" a bunch of times to no-yesses each time. He asked me for my CPL. I told him that I was not CCing, so I did not want to give it to him. I really thought he was planning on confiscating it (which, of course, would be illegal). He told me again that he wanted it. I told him that I was not consenting to the seizure, but would not resist him taking it, as I placed it on the table and made him overtly take it. He checked my address on the license. I verified it. He asked for my employer. I asked if I had to answer that question. He said that I didn't. I already knew that, but it sounds better than, "I refuse to answer that question." He must have figured out that I was not going to play his game anymore, so he stopped asking questions.
We sat there for what seemed like an interminable amount of time without talking to each other before the brass finally arrived. They added nothing to the situation. They tried the why-are-you stuff. I said it's not illegal. They repeated that they knew the law. These guys probably did. I had told the first officer that I had a letter from the sheriff saying the OC was legal and that the deputy chief of MPD had checked with the city attorney who had told him that it was legal. They, no doubt, double-checked the law before coming to the mall.
They quickly realized that I was simply not going to discuss the matter with them. When they asked how I expected the person who had called 911 to react to my gun, I said, "lawfully." When they asked how I expected them to react to the 911 call, I said, "check it out--lawfully." When they asked how I should react, I told them that now that I knew that the mall had a policy (not posted, one of the mall "security" showed me a business card with "policies" on it) against weapons, I would gather my property and leave.
They gave up. It seemed like they wanted to teach me a lesson or something, but realized that I was literate in the matter. They were on camera, and I knew that they were on camera, and they knew that I knew...., so funny business on their part was out of the question. Once again, I asked if I was free to leave, and the answer was finally and blessedly yes. The officer and I walked out together. He kept trying to find out what I was up to, but I wouldn't bite. I pointed out the lack of signage on the doors to the mall. We walked to my car. He gave me back my magazine and pistol. I asked him if he had replaced the round from the chamber to the magazine. He had. I inspected the pistol to ensure it was not loaded, mentioned that I did not like handling it in public, that the safest thing to do would be to leave it holstered. In front of him, I put the clip back in, released the slide catch, put the safety on, and reholstered the gun. I put it in the car, but did not get in yet.
The officer asked if he had returned my licenses. I was sure he did, but there was no way I was getting in the car with that gun until I checked. (Always assume that your wallet is not loaded.) I checked. I had them. We shook hands. I wished him a good day, by name, and left.
As I pulled away, I let loose a whole bunch of pent up profanities, and then followed every traffic rule on the way home.
I probably could have handled the situation better. More things that I should do were racing through my mind than I seemed to have the capacity to do. Time passed in a totally oxymoronic way. When I needed to think, time raced. When, I wanted time to race, it dragged. I estimate the the whole thing took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.
So, feel free to rip apart how I handled the situation. I have no pride of authorship here. If I put myself in legal danger, let me know.
Holy ****!
That was intense. Everyone was calm and professional, but when you recognize the power that they could exercise (not legally) it speeds up the heart rate and dries the mouth.
Anyway, after reading on OCDO about a mall that had no-carry signs posted, I wondered about Eastdale Mall. So, while I was out today, I stopped by. I approached the entrance, and just as I had recalled, there were no signs prohibiting carry. So, in I went. After visiting a bunch of my usual stores, garnering hardly any looks, and receiving zero comments, I assumed that OC at Eastdale was no big deal.
I was about to head for the exit I noticed I had picked up a tail. A mall observe-and-reportity seemed to be following me. Was he keeping an eye on me, or was he going to inform me that the mall did not allow carry? I kept him on my radar, but decided to let him make any move. Then, ahead and to my right was the LEO. I kept about my (legal) business. The officer turned directly toward me. He greeted me, so I greeted him. He then asked the fateful question: "Why are you carrying that?" gesturing to my pistol.
I had prepared for this moment, so I knew to appear to cooperate, while not really saying anything. So, I replied, "It's legal, isn't it?" He said, "I know the law." I didn't think he did, but confrontation was his friend, not mine. He asked if we could talk about it. I shrugged. He asked me if I would go with him into the office. It was right there. I don't know if it was smart, but making a scene wouldn't have been, so I went with him.
It turned out to be wise; the office had a security camera. I asked the mall "security" how long they kept the tapes while pointing to the camera. They replied 9 days. As long as I did nothing illegal (and, I planned on doing nothing illegal), the officer would be stuck behaving legally--or risk my being able to prove he didn't. He asked me for my pistol. I told him that I did not consent to his taking it, but that I would not resist if he chose to seize it. I pointed to the buckle and move my hands up and out of the way. He unfastened my belt and removed it and the gun.
He immediately noticed that it was in condition 1. "You've even got it cocked!" he said. He seemed shocked. I pointed to the safety and told him that it was on, and that that was the safest way to carry a 1911 (as I had learned this the hard way). He asked me for my identification. I had no objection to that, so I gave him my driver's license. He asked if I had a permit to CC. I reminded him that I was not carrying concealed. He asked again, and I said yes. He asked why I didn't carry concealed. I didn't answer.
He left me in the office while he stepped outside the door--with my belt, pistol, and phone. I asked him for my phone. He said that I would get it back later. I am fairly certain that he broke the law there. He must have been calling in, because when he returned, I went through the "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" routine, to which he replied I was and that we were waiting for his captain and lieutenant. When I asked why I was being detained, he assured me that I was not under arrest and went into the story of how he came to be there. I told him that I understood that and reminded him that I asked why I was being detained. He threw out some vague stuff about checking things out, so I prompted him, "Are you saying that I am being detained while you investigate." He said that he was.
I repeated the questions, "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" a bunch of times to no-yesses each time. He asked me for my CPL. I told him that I was not CCing, so I did not want to give it to him. I really thought he was planning on confiscating it (which, of course, would be illegal). He told me again that he wanted it. I told him that I was not consenting to the seizure, but would not resist him taking it, as I placed it on the table and made him overtly take it. He checked my address on the license. I verified it. He asked for my employer. I asked if I had to answer that question. He said that I didn't. I already knew that, but it sounds better than, "I refuse to answer that question." He must have figured out that I was not going to play his game anymore, so he stopped asking questions.
We sat there for what seemed like an interminable amount of time without talking to each other before the brass finally arrived. They added nothing to the situation. They tried the why-are-you stuff. I said it's not illegal. They repeated that they knew the law. These guys probably did. I had told the first officer that I had a letter from the sheriff saying the OC was legal and that the deputy chief of MPD had checked with the city attorney who had told him that it was legal. They, no doubt, double-checked the law before coming to the mall.
They quickly realized that I was simply not going to discuss the matter with them. When they asked how I expected the person who had called 911 to react to my gun, I said, "lawfully." When they asked how I expected them to react to the 911 call, I said, "check it out--lawfully." When they asked how I should react, I told them that now that I knew that the mall had a policy (not posted, one of the mall "security" showed me a business card with "policies" on it) against weapons, I would gather my property and leave.
They gave up. It seemed like they wanted to teach me a lesson or something, but realized that I was literate in the matter. They were on camera, and I knew that they were on camera, and they knew that I knew...., so funny business on their part was out of the question. Once again, I asked if I was free to leave, and the answer was finally and blessedly yes. The officer and I walked out together. He kept trying to find out what I was up to, but I wouldn't bite. I pointed out the lack of signage on the doors to the mall. We walked to my car. He gave me back my magazine and pistol. I asked him if he had replaced the round from the chamber to the magazine. He had. I inspected the pistol to ensure it was not loaded, mentioned that I did not like handling it in public, that the safest thing to do would be to leave it holstered. In front of him, I put the clip back in, released the slide catch, put the safety on, and reholstered the gun. I put it in the car, but did not get in yet.
The officer asked if he had returned my licenses. I was sure he did, but there was no way I was getting in the car with that gun until I checked. (Always assume that your wallet is not loaded.) I checked. I had them. We shook hands. I wished him a good day, by name, and left.
As I pulled away, I let loose a whole bunch of pent up profanities, and then followed every traffic rule on the way home.
I probably could have handled the situation better. More things that I should do were racing through my mind than I seemed to have the capacity to do. Time passed in a totally oxymoronic way. When I needed to think, time raced. When, I wanted time to race, it dragged. I estimate the the whole thing took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.
So, feel free to rip apart how I handled the situation. I have no pride of authorship here. If I put myself in legal danger, let me know.
Holy ****!