Masculinity through the barrel of a gun

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Bersa 380, I would suggest yhat you read the thread AGAIN, but this time with some thought about the content.

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Trigger Dr wrote:

Bersa 380, I would suggest yhat you read the thread AGAIN, but this time with some thought about the content.

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I think what I am asking has been addressed in this thread by other "Posters" My words are just a little more direct and to the point.

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cynicist wrote:

I would say you teacher lives somewhere that there are no thugs on the street looking for cred, so s/he can't make a practical comparison.
Or perhaps that's why your teacher is a sociologist, not a psychologist, and therefore can't accurately determine why we do what we do (not like actual psychologists can either) but instead just made it up.

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Right next to Rev. Wright.

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

I think what I am asking has been addressed in this thread by other "Posters" My words are just a little more direct and to the point.

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And completely non-applicable. Or else you agree with her professor...

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Are her questions not gender specific ? Read the whole thread LT. Not everyone sees this thread the same. IMO .... the best answer came form some one that said: "YES, I am compensating because I can't throw a rock at a 1,000 Feet Per Second"

Another factor: You don't know if I am female or male, if you did know ? Would it change the way you react to my postings ?

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I agree, Bersa, that your comments did not make sense to me either.

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MrGray wrote:

Sylvia Plath wrote:

According to my Sociology instructor there is no difference between a man exercising his right to carry and self-defense and a thug on the street who carries for street credit.

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Ask you sociology 'instructor' how this applies to my wife and daughter, both of whom are licensed to carry concealed, both of whom are trained to use firearms, and both of whom refuse to be passive victims.

Are they, too, compensating? Or is your 'instructor' compensating for being insecure, inadequate, and incompetent by running down people who take responsibility for their own safety?

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Try what has been said above on for size, put that way, is it clearer ?

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

MrGray wrote:

Sylvia Plath wrote:

According to my Sociology instructor there is no difference between a man exercising his right to carry and self-defense and a thug on the street who carries for street credit.

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Ask you sociology 'instructor' how this applies to my wife and daughter, both of whom are licensed to carry concealed, both of whom are trained to use firearms, and both of whom refuse to be passive victims.

Are they, too, compensating? Or is your 'instructor' compensating for being insecure, inadequate, and incompetent by running down people who take responsibility for their own safety?

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Try what has been said above on for size, put that way, is it clearer ?

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I guess I must just be especially dense, because, no it does not make your response of:

Sylvia:

It kind of feels like you're making this a gender issue and maybe hunting for something.

The fact is men and women are very opposite, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Therefore my question to you is ………..

Can you just honor the differences ?

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any clearer to me at all.

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Then it's a waste of both your time and mine to further this conversation !

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I think that the overarching psychology here is the mechanism of projection. People suffering from this malady project their responses to life onto other people, assuming that all people are basically the same. We here at OCDO realize the opposite.

In the world of self defense and the tools to achieve it, many anti rights people come face to face with the fact that they don't have the self control to carry a gun. Fine so far. Know your limitations. Where these people go astray is in projecting their fears about their own lack of self control onto others. The response of most people to being told, explicitly or implicitly, that they're not responsible enough to enjoy G-d given rights, is not going to be accommodating. Indeed, it's likely to be polarizing, if not outright rude.

Next, after poisoning the well, the projector seeks data and viewpoints that support his position. [Her in the case of Sylvia's instructor.] Since the projector wasn't honest in the first case, his failure to own up to his own shortcomings, he's going to be no more honest in learning about the world of self defense and the people who inhabit it. Indeed he will actively seek any support for his position that he can find, and to hell with honesty. Any port in a storm.

Such dishonesty is easy to come by, given the multitude of sources providing misinformation on the subject. Being a college instructor or professor puts one in the very center of that misinformation. Looking outside of academia can be a study in gathering bad information when one lacks the basic honesty that was lacking in the beginning; the dishonesty that produced the original problem.

MD

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HankT wrote:

marshaul wrote:

HankT wrote:

I've been meaning to read this book but just can't find the time.

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Don't be silly, I read it in maybe 4 hours. It's quite short.

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Man, you just don't know the stacks that come before any fiction....

Since you've read it, marshaul, what do you think about the use of the An armed society is a polite society line by pro-gunners?  Does it make sense to you? Does it make rhetorical sense to use as some kind of pro-gun principle?

How often does the phrase appear in the book?

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The phrase is used once in the book.

To be honest, I think the quote makes a fair statement taken out of context.

I am much more polite when I'm armed, not because I "know I will have to defend my words with my life", but because I'm aware that I'm going to be held to a higher standard of responsibility, and that awareness is a constant reminder to mind my behavior.

However, as is evidenced in Heinlein's writing (which is very interesting, mind you), his notion was that dueling would replace natural selection as the impetus to human evolution, and that sufficiently antisocial persons would find themselves simply unable to live in society.

I might find it appropriate to simply make the antisocial unable to live in society IF "antisocial" were equivalent to "aggressive", but in the real world I am disinclined to see dueling as a particularly useful function when considering social order.

In Heinlein's worlds, it's not uncommon for people to find themselves unable to continue living for some trivial transgression which hardly constitutes an objective act of aggression, and that's totally acceptable because it's merely society enforcing it filters or whatever.

I've felt at times that Heinlein would be right behind a lynchmob so long as its victim was sufficiently unable to function in society. This is little more than vulgar democracy at its worst, I feel.

If there is any purpose to a government, it is precisely to restrain those impulses, to establish an objective standard for aggression with which all of society can abide -- not just those who are the most socially adaptable of beings.

However, despite all that, I am inclined to feel that an armed society is likely to become a polite society.

I can't imagine Eddie DiDonato lasting any longer if he carried a gun. In fact, he'd probably be on his way to jail from the hospital if he had.

I can't help but suspect that loutish armed Americans will find themselves in a life-defining situation as a result of their gun-carrying loutishness so fast it would make all our heads spin.

Generally, the less responsibility people have, the less they exercise it.

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Here is the short excerpt from the novel that contains the phrase so you can see it more-or-less in context:
________

‘What of it? I’d still be myself. I don’t care what people think.’

‘You’re mistaken, son. To believe that you can live free of your cultural matrix is one of the easiest fallacies and has some of the worst consequences. You are part of your group whether you like it or not, and you are bound by its customs.’

‘But they’re only customs!’

‘Don’t belittle customs. It is easier to change Mendelian characteristics than it is to change customs. If you try to ignore them, they bind you when you least expect it.’

‘But dammit! How can there be any progress if we don’t break customs?’

‘Don’t break them-avoid them. Take them into your considerations, examine how they work, and make them serve you. You don’t need to disarm yourself to stay out of fights. If you did you would get into fights-I know you!-the way Smith did. An armed man need not fight. I haven’t drawn my gun for more years than I can remember.’

‘Come to think about it, I haven’t pulled mine in four years or more.’

‘That’s the idea. But don’t assume that the custom of going armed is useless. Customs always have a reason behind them, sometimes good, sometimes bad. This is a good one.’

‘Why do you say that? I used to think so, but I have my doubts now.’

‘Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. For me, politeness is a sine qua non of civilization. That’s a personal evaluation only. But gun-fighting has a strong biological use. We do not have enough things to kill off the weak and the stupid these days. But to stay alive as an armed citizen a man has to be either quick with his wits or with his hands, preferably both. It’s a good thing.

‘Of course,’ he continued, ‘our combativeness has to do with our ancestry and our history.’ Hamilton nodded; he knew that Mordan referred to the Second Genetic War. ‘But we have preserved that inheritance intentionally. The Planners would not stop the wearing of arms if they could.’

‘Maybe so,’ Felix answered slowly, ‘but it does seem like there ought to be a better way to do it. This way is pretty sloppy. Sometimes the bystanders get burned.’

‘The alert ones don’t,’ Mordan pointed out. ‘But don’t expect human institutions to be efficient. They never have been; it is a mistake to think that they can be made so-in this millennium or the next.’

‘Why not?’

‘Because we are sloppy, individually-and therefore collectively. Look at a cageful of monkeys, at your next opportunity. Watch how they do things and listen to them chatter. You’ll find it instructive. You’ll understand humans better.’

Felix grinned. ‘I think I see what you mean.
________

:?

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

Then it's a waste of both your time and mine to further this conversation !

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That statement we agree upon! :celebrate

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I'll further my questions or opinion to ones that see the bigger picture.

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Machoduck wrote:

I think that the overarching psychology here is the mechanism of projection. People suffering from this malady project their responses to life onto other people, assuming that all people are basically the same. We here at OCDO realize the opposite.

In the world of self defense and the tools to achieve it, many anti rights people come face to face with the fact that they don't have the self control to carry a gun. Fine so far. Know your limitations. Where these people go astray is in projecting their fears about their own lack of self control onto others. The response of most people to being told, explicitly or implicitly, that they're not responsible enough to enjoy G-d given rights, is not going to be accommodating. Indeed, it's likely to be polarizing, if not outright rude.

Next, after poisoning the well, the projector seeks data and viewpoints that support his position. [Her in the case of Sylvia's instructor.] Since the projector wasn't honest in the first case, his failure to own up to his own shortcomings, he's going to be no more honest in learning about the world of self defense and the people who inhabit it. Indeed he will actively seek any support for his position that he can find, and to hell with honesty. Any port in a storm.

Such dishonesty is easy to come by, given the multitude of sources providing misinformation on the subject. Being a college instructor or professor puts one in the very center of that misinformation. Looking outside of academia can be a study in gathering bad information when one lacks the basic honesty that was lacking in the beginning; the dishonesty that produced the original problem.

MD

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Very well said ......... thanks for taking the time to write this out !

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I am with you Navy, if it makes you feel any better. Maybe I just took the bait but I didn't see any hook out there.

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

Then it's a waste of both your time and mine to further this conversation !

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That statement we agree upon! :celebrate

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I'll further my questions or opinion to ones that see the bigger picture.

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And so the discussion degrades to personal attacks. I apologize for being too simple minded to see your point.

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I was making a Statement; nothing about that was meant as a personal attack on you. You agreed we were wasting each others time, so IMO I am moving on.



Now here this: (Navy captain talking over the 1MC, Humor me !) Regardless of our disagreements I hope we are all here to defend our 2A rights .... with that being said: What do you carry and what ammo do you use ? I like Buffalo Bore in my .380 and Speer .40 S&W Gold Dots in my Beretta PX4 Storm.

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John Hardin wrote:

killchain wrote:

You could also ask your Soc professor to perform a quantitative survey on gun owners and ask if they are "compensating."

When the majority say no...

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"Compensating"? Of course I'm "compensating." I'm compensating for the fact that I can't accurately throw a rock at a thousand feet per second.

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Well said. +1. Hahaha. I absolutely HATED my time in Sociology class.

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

What do you carry and what ammo do you use ? I like Buffalo Bore in my .380 and Speer .40 S&W Gold Dots in my Beretta PX4 Storm.

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Taurus PT-145 with Hornady TAP 230gr +P. I don't really like it, but the soon-to-be-ex sold the 13 gun collection I had to leave behind when I deployed to Iraq after she filed for divorce - but before the divorce was settled and property was awarded - so it was all I had left when I got back.

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I am not familiar with the PT-145. spitting 230gr slugs I 'll assume it's a .45 1911 type ..... Man, sorry to hear she sold you stuff, that ain't right :cuss:

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

I am not familiar with the PT-145. spitting 230gr slugs I 'll assume it's a .45 1911 type ..... Man, sorry to hear she sold you stuff, that ain't right :cuss:

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Commonly known as the Millennium Pro.

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It's official .... I think we hi-jacked this thread ... ... :lol:

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Bersa, thanks for the kind words. I noticed your neat trick of hypertexting three different words, kinda' like Wikipedia, but all three just led back to this thread. Was this a subtle hint to stay on thread? I thought I was. After all, aren't we analyzing Sylvia's instructor? :celebrate

md

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Machoduck wrote:

Bersa, thanks for the kind words. I noticed your neat trick of hypertexting three different words, kinda' like Wikipedia, but all three just led back to this thread. Was this a subtle hint to stay on thread? I thought I was. After all, aren't we analyzing Sylvia's instructor? :celebrate

md

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YES !

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NavyLT wrote:

Bersa.380 wrote:

I am not familiar with the PT-145. spitting 230gr slugs I 'll assume it's a .45 1911 type ..... Man, sorry to hear she sold you stuff, that ain't right :cuss:

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Commonly known as the Millennium Pro.

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We ever get a chance to meet, I'd like to compare your 45 Model against my 9. Pt111 mill pro. Size, wieght. I would rather have a 45 over the 9. Mine is a 12+1 so I imagine if you dont have an extended mag, yours would be a 10+1.